GCN Radio - February 10, 2006
Transcribed by sandushinka

To listen to this episode, visit http://www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio

[GCN Radio Intro]

BRIAN: Well, it's 2006 and we are together again.

JUSTIN: January 2006, in fact . . .

BRIAN: Yeah, that's right.

JUSTIN: . . . because we took a little time off last month . . .

BRIAN: Right.

JUSTIN: . . . for January.

BRIAN: It was good, we went to the . . . I finally made it to a conference AND my first GCN gathering.

BRIAN: You know we have a little web site over at http://www.gaychristian.net and I was unable to make the first annual conference in 2005. But I made the second annual one and it was so great. And people can learn more about all the fun stuff by going to our website but it was a good time.

JUSTIN: It was a good time. So, for anyone who may be just joining us, this is season four of GCN Radio. This is our first episode of the new season. I'll talk about that in a second but I'm Justin.

BRIAN: And I'm Brian.

JUSTIN: Yes, and we have this wonderful cross-country radio show recording from two different locations and having some guests and discussions and all kinds of things relating to the GLBT Christian community. So that's a lot of fun. And I have to say, it's been like a month since the last show -- over a month since the last show -- and I just feel like we're out of practice.

BRIAN: We're working out the kinks again. We're just getting back in the swing of it.

JUSTIN: And we're trying desperately to start off season four, you know we're sort of starting on a kind of an "eh" note because normally we always -- by accident-- start off talking about food. And we're not talking about food this season.

BRIAN: Well, you just ate so you're not hungry anymore. I on the other hand am starving and I'm not eating until after church music practice tonight.

JUSTIN: Oh, goodness. Well, so I'm trying to not talk about food but it gives us nothing to talk about. It's really sad.

BRIAN: I know.

JUSTIN: Gay Christians--apparently all we talk about is food.

BRIAN: Hey, but we can talk about comments that we've gotten.

JUSTIN: We can talk about comments. I'm sorry, yes, I'm getting off track about food again. We do, we have some great comments. We've gotten a bunch of comments through our website during this past month. And we asked the question, at the end of season three, about changing the format of the show just a little bit.

BRIAN: Just a little bit. Just here and there little tweaks. What do people think? How do people think I should open the show? How do they think you should close it . . . and so on and so forth. So we're sticking right now -- we've still got our season three opening but what are people saying about how we should do this little show of ours?

JUSTIN: Well I have to tell you, our listeners are not very helpful on this topic. They've been so helpful on other topics and they've been very unhelpful on this.

BRIAN: OK. Fair enough.

JUSTIN: But they like us. Caroline wrote in:

"I think the way you guys open and close the show is just fine."

BRIAN: OK.

JUSTIN: "I'm sure lots of people will becoming up with great suggestions for you so I'll just say, you know, do whatever. I'm sure whatever you guys say will end up sounding great." Well, thanks a lot Caroline.

BRIAN: Hey, well . . .

JUSTIN: See if we listen to anything . . .

BRIAN: Actually, it makes my job a lot easier -- the "do whatever" approach.

JUSTIN: The "do whatever" approach . . .

BRIAN: If I could go to work everyday and just "do whatever" I would be a happy man. So I like it. Caroline, thank you, that is a wonderful suggestion. We will totally take that under advisement.

JUSTIN: James wrote in:

"As far as openings and closing go, I like what the boys have got going already."

Well, what the boys have got going already is nothing, OK? We've been doing this for a long time now and we don't even know what we're doing. OK.

BRIAN: That's true. Ok, so far I'm feeling affirmed here.

JUSTIN: Clint has an actual suggestion. Clint says:

"Brian, you should begin the episode mentioning the date. It'll be very helpful in the future."

BRIAN: Mentioning a date? Who am I dating? Wait, oh . . . oh, the date.

JUSTIN: I think he means . . .

BRIAN: . . . like the day of the week, the time . . . oh, ok.

JUSTIN: . . . like the fruit.

BRIAN: . . . month, year and date . . . and year . . . gotcha.

JUSTIN: . . . like figs and dates. No, I was thinking dates and figs. The date is a very important fruit.

BRIAN: That's true, often neglected.

JUSTIN: Often neglected. So, we really need to give our shout out to the date. Although we're not going to do food this year, Clint, so, sorry, we can't mention the date.

Clint suggests that I end with something liturgical like "go in peace" or "feed the hungry" or something like that.

BRIAN: Oh, OK. A ceremonial dismissal, yes . . . "The Lord be with you" . . . "And also with you."

JUSTIN: Brian, you're from a Catholic background. I'm from a Southern Baptist background. We don't do liturgy.

BRIAN: Right.

JUSTIN: So, I don't know.

BRIAN: So maybe I should end the show and say "Go in peace and love and serve the Lord." Or you should say "hey, let's kick it Jesus style."

JUSTIN: [laughing] Uh, yeah. We Southern baptists, we end with "Let's eat . . . Church is over, let's eat."

BRIAN: I like it.

JUSTIN: Alright.

BRIAN: "Lord, make us able to eat everything on the table."

JUSTIN: But again, we're not doing food this year.

BRIAN: Oh, yeah. Excuse me.

JUSTIN: Let's see, Ken says:

"I was thinking that Brian could open the show similar to how Tim Russert starts the show "Meet the Press." You know, there's the opening sequence and after that he says "But first . . . ""

BRIAN: OK.

JUSTIN: That's what Ken suggests. And he also sends me a thank you for not trying to imitate his voice on the previous show.

Joel says:

"Brian should open the show with a mouthful of funnel cake and Justin should close gargling with candy corn."

BRIAN: [laughing] I love it. Oh my gosh, that's great.

JUSTIN: I'm not sure how you gargle with candy corn. Again, for those of you who are just tuning in, you missed out if you didn't catch the references -- they're season 3 references. You'll have to go through and listen to season 3 or you won't get the jokes.

BRIAN: But we're not talking about food, Justin.

JUSTIN: No, we're not talking about food. How do we always end up . . .? It's my fault, I know it is.

And one final comment . . . this is from Justin (not me) . . . some other Justin, who writes simply:

"Arias, um, you know . . . opera solos."

And then a little smiley face.

BRIAN: Oh boy.

JUSTIN: Brian, you want to sing?

BRIAN: Aaaaah, no.

JUSTIN: Alright, so as I said . . .

BRIAN: But I appreciate the suggestion.

JUSTIN: . . . yes, our listeners are no help this time.

BRIAN: I mean, I still like the "oh, whatever" approach.

JUSTIN: You know who we didn't hear from?

BRIAN: We didn't hear from Jenny.

JUSTIN: Jenny, we didn't hear from Jenny,

BRIAN: I'm disappointed. I feel lost.

JUSTIN: Jenny probably is overwhelmed. She didn't know what to tell us to do to open or close the show.

BRIAN: Well, we'll take all of this under advisement and in the next week or so we will have a brand spanking new way of opening the show and/or closing the show. So, for the meantime, we'll stick with what we have but at any point we could be opening and closing in a whole different way.

JUSTIN: That's right because . . .

BRIAN: We'll see what's going to happen.

JUSTIN: . . . because this is season four -- year 3 of GCN radio, which is very exciting for us. You know, if you go to our web site, which is http://www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio , you can listen to all our old episodes. They're not all in the podcast feed so if you're listening to us on iTunes, not all of the old episodes are there but they are all on our website. So it's http://www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio.

We've had a ton of just amazing guests. We've had Rev. Mel White, the author and head of Soulforce. We've had Brian Dannelly, the writer and director of the film "Saved" with Mandy Moore and Macaulay Culkin.

BRIAN: Ralph Blair, the head of Evangelicals Concerned.

JUSTIN: That's right. We've had the pop stars Jason & deMarco. So many awesome, awesome guests I can't even name them all.

BRIAN: Absolutely.

JUSTIN: And to add to those great names of the big people in gay friendly Christendom, is our guest for today. The whole blog thing -- you know we're doing this podcast thing, podcasting has taken off -- and the whole blog thing has really taken off too. There is this fantastic blog out there that some of our listeners have seen -- and some of them may not have seen -- called "Two World Collision." And it is a blog about one guy's journey through . . . dealing with being attracted to the same sex and being a Christian. I don't want to say more than that. I'll let him talk about it. His name is Eric and I'm thrilled to have him join us on the show today cause this is a guy who's making, I think, a tremendous difference in the world right now. So, Eric, welcome to the show.

ERIC: How am I supposed to fill the shoes you're talking about? They're wide. Jason & deMarco . . . and then there's Eric.

BRIAN: Well, probably just say thank you and collect the royalties.

ERIC: Wow. Well, anyway, it's a pleasure to be here, thanks.

JUSTIN: Actually, to start off . . . Eric, can you tell us, for those maybe who haven't seen your blog, a little bit about how did things start with Two World Collision and what's it about?

ERIC: Well, Two World Collision, it's only been roughly 6 months since I started it. And really it started just to be a journal for me. And I needed some kind of a creative outlet to, for myself . . . to process through, what I've been calling it, this journey of mine. I've known that I was gay for pretty much all my life. Since as early as third grade I knew that I was gay.

BRIAN: Third grade?

ERIC: Yeah.

BRIAN: Really?

ERIC: Yeah, third grade.

BRIAN: Wow.

JUSTIN: Let me, actually I want to ask you a question and I apologize for interrupting you. I normally don't interrupt our guests. But I'm going to interrupt you. And it's only because I respect you, Eric. But no, I want to stop on this point because you talk about knowing that you were gay. Have you always used that word, gay?

ERIC: No. I eventually learned the label. When I reflect back into my memories, I remember being attracted to other boys my age. I remember being attracted to my guy classmates and then I looked at the girls, I looked at the boys, I looked at the girls and I looked at the boys.

And you know there was a time where I even chose to have a crush on one of the girls. But it never was the same kind of a feeling that I had for some of the boys. Those were just natural crushes that I had on some of the boys. But the girls they were, like, I had to pick them. And I had to choose, OK, this is the one that I'm going to say that I have a crush on. I'm talking about third and fourth and fifth grade. I chose which ones, I would let everybody know which ones I had a crush on. So that everyone would know that I'm like everybody else, that I like the girls too. So, I kinda knew.

BRIAN: Wow.

ERIC: But there's always been some kind of a stigma. Whether it be grade school or whether it be from TV or from family or from anywhere, there's always been some kind of a stigma attached to it. So I naturally kept it secret.

I became a christian when I was 16 years old. And so with that new dynamic in my life, I began to grow in my faith but at the same time suppress even more just the feelings of my attractions towards other guys. It made it more and more important for it to be a secret because I didn't want to lose this new church family that I had. Because I had some rough times with connecting well with my family because my parents got divorced, right after sixth grade. And so I felt like my family was divorcing me. And so when I got saved, or when I became a Christian, the church kind of became my surrogate family.

BRIAN: Wow.

ERIC: So I didn't want to do anything for the church family to divorce me. And so I kept it way, way, way secret in the darkness, in the closet. So that noone would know. But the problem was . . . I still had to live with it. So it was always something that I dealt with. Or if it had any means of expression, it was at home when I was alone. Or it was in my mind, in my imagination even. In the presence of other people, nobody could know.

So there were these two worlds that were completely separate, completely dualistic. And on the outside, I was growing in my faith. I wasn't just going through the motions. I sincerely was growing in my faith in Christ and growing in my knowledge of God. And even being used by him. But at the same time there were these temptations that I was struggling with and living through. And I was being told that these things are not acceptable.

And as a result my self-esteem crashed many times. In terms of being told that God loves me but at the same time he doesn't love me, because of who you are or because of how I feel or because of what I'm thinking. So there is this tension between God's unconditional love and the church's conditional love towards me. It drove me crazy.

ERIC: Yeah.

JUSTIN: And yet, I notice you obviously have a lot of love for the church. And a tremendous faith and that really comes through in your writing. Can you tell us a little bit about how that faith has influenced the things that your write? Because, obviously, a lot of what you've written has been not just what you've been going through but a lot of what you believe and what you've been wrestling with, with regard to what you believe.

ERIC: Right. Since the time that I knew that God was interacting with me, God began to speak to my heart about this concept of living out my faith -- a lifestyle of faith. And while I was connected with the church -- I was serving a lot of different ministries in various contexts -- the consistent theme in all of those ministries, that God was speaking through me, was this theme of living out your faith.

It had to go past this concept of a spectator faith -- just going through the motions. Playing church is what I call it -- just playing church. It's got to be a lifestyle. It's not a Sunday thing, it's not a Saturday thing, it's not a one day a week thing. But it's a lifestyle and every interaction that I have with other people reflects an interaction that I have with God, and an interaction that God has with other people through me. And so my perspective regarding my faith and how we live it out has really affected my journey of exploring these two worlds.

BRIAN: Eric, can you give me an example, maybe of a particular time or a situation where you had to make a decision about which course of action to take? Where your faith helped you to reach a decision in light of this sort of duality that you're living as a gay person and a Christian. You see what I mean?

ERIC: Yeah, I guess I could use a recent example. I'm supposing you would want -- I've got plenty of examples where I didn't follow my faith.

A recent example of when my faith was actually a strong foundation for a decision that I made was even the decision to start dating. I made the decision -- in my journey I was exploring all of the different sides: Side A, Side B, Side X. And I was evaluating them and I was researching and I was interviewing. And I was just talking to people and hearing stories and everything. And eventually along this journey of mine, I came to a point, to where I needed to get off the fence. And I'm never going to get off the fence if I keep it academic, if I don't just start living it out and start walking and see what God tells me. He'll either convict me or he'll give me peace about it. So I decided, "OK, I'm ready to start dating."

And my faith was really a strong foundation for me in the sense that, when I made that decision, I had already decided that sex was not going to be something I was going to jump into. I didn't want to have a typical out experience, coming out experience. Like all of the other stories that I'd heard of people just realizing they were gay and feeling freed to be just who they are. And then all of a sudden going through a whole season of exploration and freedom and stuff like that. And making lousy decision or decisions that they later regretted, in terms of sex. I decided that OK, yeah, I'm going to start dating but this doesn't change the values that I have. It's not easy. It's not easy. It's definitely not easy but it's still a decision that I've made that I'm trying my best to follow.

JUSTIN: And you know, when you talk about that, you talk about the difference sides and things that you explored and all that, it was one of the things that I loved so much about reading your blog. And I can't say enough good things about it. It's just fascinating. Obviously, with the kind of work that we do, Brian and I both hear a lot from other people who have struggled in their lives with being gay and Christian. I think most of us have struggled, wouldn't you say Brian?

BRIAN: Oh, yeah, I think that's why we have http://www.gaychristian.net, because it is a struggle.

JUSTIN: And some people really never do get back, get back to a place where their faith is leading them, where their faith or God is preeminent in their lives. And I think it's so obvious reading your blog that you've never claimed to be perfect. And you've been very upfront, in some of the things you've written, about the fact that you're human and, like all of us, have made mistakes in your journey. Which again I think is wonderful because a lot of us as Christians, we want so much to be seen as good Christians. And we don't do that. But then you talk about that but you also make it very clear that your first goal is not just to be who you are, whatever that means, but to really follow Christ.

ERIC: I think it's important for us, if we proclaim Christ, I think it's important to remember that who we are is a new creation. We absolutely are a new creation and I believe that. And what that means for me and my testimony is that my identity is in Christ. It's just that I don't believe when he says I'm a new creation, he doesn't transform my sexuality from being homosexual to heterosexual. I believe that when he says I am a new creation, he transforms the way I express my love. He transforms the way I express my life from a place of loving unhealthy and improperly in the context of lust. And he transforms me into a person who loves properly and healthy in a context of what real love is.

BRIAN: Let me ask, where are you with the church? You said that when you were 16 you became a Christian and the church became the family, your adopted chosen family. Where is your church in your life right now and do you still feel a sense of strain about you can't be completely out with them?

ERIC: There is still some tension. There is a church which has a service that I attend somewhat regularly on Sundays -- one particular church body here in the city that I live in. But at the same time, I maintain relationships from people of different churches because I believe that we are one church -- the church of this city. And I believe that we need to begin to interact with each other as a church, rather than this church and that church and this other church. I do believe that Christ will come back and I believe that he's going to come for a bride not a harem.

And so at some point his bride, who needs to start acting like one body. And a lot of the work that I do in my public ministry is working with several different churches of different denominations. And what we do is we work to build relationships with them. We connect pastors to each other and we work to build trust and relationships with pastors of different denominations. Not even just the inclusive churches but the mainstream churches. And pretty much the work that we're doing is just building relationships between churches all throughout the entire city.

BRIAN: Is that successful? Is it working out?

ERIC: Gosh, it's tough. Our measures of success are very intangible. Our measures of success are the quality of relationships. And if we can say that, in a year from now, if two particular pastors have a greater degree of trust with each other, then we will consider ourselves successful. Our focus is on relationships, not on programs or events or anything like that. You know churches can do joint outreaches and concerts and stuff like that -- and that's great and everything -- but our focus should be on ongoing relationships, not on the event. The event should be a tool to propel us towards ongoing relationships. And so sometimes there's tension. Sometimes there's theological differences, but what we try to do is we find a common ground. Christ is our common ground. We may disagree on certain other things but we all agree that Christ is Lord. And we're his.

BRIAN: Wow.

JUSTIN: Yeah, we could just talk the rest of the day. We could just do a 24 hour GCN radio.

ERIC: That'd be fun.

JUSTIN: Yeah really, your voice might get tired after a while. So I want to encourage our listeners to check out Eric's blog on a regular basis at http://twoworldcollision.blogspot.com . And really, if you haven't had a chance, go back and read it from the beginning and follow this guy's journey because it's incredible and I think it really reflects the journey a lot of folks are going through.

BRIAN: And Eric as a final question, when you're talking to other people who are coming out within the context of being Christian, what kind of advice do you have for them?

ERIC: For people who are just now coming out?

BRIAN: People who are struggling to reconcile their faith and their sexuality, what has helped you?

ERIC: One of the significant milestones for me, in my journey, was realizing that when I accepted Christ it had nothing to do with being straight or gay. When I accepted Christ and I heard the Gospel, it was a Gospel of grace. It was a Gospel that told me that Christ loved me. God loved me. And he died for me. And through faith in him I received my salvation. I received reconciliation with God because of grace. Not because of anything that I did or was or tried to be or anything like that. The salvation equation for me was grace, period, through Jesus Christ. And so heterosexual, homosexual that has nothing to do with the fact that I am acceptable before God because of Christ. He sees him when he looks at me. And I thank God for that.

JUSTIN: Amen.

BRIAN: Wow.

JUSTIN: That's what it's about, people.

BRIAN: Yeah. Yep, yep. What a testimony. Eric, thank you so much for being part of GCN Radio and for the good work that you are doing.

ERIC: Well, thanks for having me guys. I appreciate the opportunity to serve in any way and I make myself available to anybody who may find peace in my story. Thanks for the opportunity, guys.

JUSTIN: Thank you.

BRIAN: Well, another great interview and very insightful. We're so glad Eric was able to join us.

Before we go, Justin, I love the interactive component of GCN Radio and getting people involved and having the comment line. That's where we get to the question of the week.

JUSTIN: The way this works, we ask a question and you can answer it either via our website in text format or you can call our comment line and answer the question. You just call and leave a message on the voice mail box there. And then we may play it on a future episode of the show. So our question this week, I want to talk about what Eric was saying earlier, about how your faith, well, just a lot of what of what Eric talks about. How your faith impacts being a gay person?

BRIAN: Absolutely, it influences decisions that you make and how your faith affects your life.

JUSTIN: Exactly. So for those listeners out there who are gay Christians -- of course not all of our listeners are gay Christians -- but for those who are, I would specifically like to ask, how does your Christian faith set you apart -- in terms of in your actions, the way that you behave in your life -- how does it set you apart from the rest of the gay community? In other words, are there times you've made certain decisions or behaved in certain ways because you're a Christian? And the decisions that you made are different from the ones you might have made if you were a gay non-Christian. So how does your Christian faith impact that decision-making process and set you apart from the rest of the gay community? So that's my question.

BRIAN: The way you respond, of course, is that you could call our comment line toll free, 1-888-GAY-4-GOD -- 1-888-GAY-4-GOD in the United States and Canada.

JUSTIN: That's right.

BRIAN: Or your can type in the text box your response from our website at http://gaychristian.net/gcnradio

JUSTIN: Yes.

BRIAN: And we'll be bringing you those responses on a future show.

JUSTIN: Yes.

BRIAN: So keep listening and downloading and you just might hear yourself.

JUSTIN: That's right.

BRIAN: Provided you call in. And we really appreciate people when they call in because it just makes this show sound better when we can have your charming, lovely voice right here on GCN Radio.

JUSTIN: So that I don't have to imitate you.

BRIAN: We got into some trouble, I think, with that last time. We're going to try to limit Justin's imitations of people.

JUSTIN: That's right. And I want to say, also, some folks during our break between seasons three & four sent us a bunch of comments through the website about the show and stuff like that and we may be reading some of those on a future show as well. So we haven't forgotten you. We have all those comments and we're looking forward to having a bunch of your thoughts on the show this year -- season four GCN Radio.

BRIAN: Yeah. Well, should we let people go and get about their day and find something better to do with their time?

JUSTIN: There's nothing better to do than listen to us, Brian. What are you talking about?

BRIAN: Of course, well, you know.

JUSTIN: You can listen to us on your mp3 player while you're on a treadmill, or in the car on the way to work, or . . .
BRIAN: . . . safely, absolutely, you can find us online also http://www. gaychristian.net/gcnradio where we have all of our past, present and future episodes. So visit often and . . . visit early and often.

JUSTIN: And you can subscribe to our podcast either through the website there or through iTunes or pretty much any other podcast directory you can find out there. And the podcasts will always have the most recent episodes. It doesn't have all the back episodes -- you can get those from the website.

BRIAN: Great. So excellent, we'll talk to you next week and so for this week, I'm Brian . . .

JUSTIN: . . . and I'm Justin with simply arias.

BRIAN: Oh boy.

JUSTIN: Brian, you want to sing?

[opera music]