GCN Radio - March 16, 2007
Transcribed by polodixon

To listen to this episode, visit http://www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio

[GCN Radio Intro]

BRIAN: This is Brian.

JUSTIN: And this is Justin.

BRIAN AND JUSTIN: And welcome to another edition of GCN Radio.

BRIAN: Well here it is Justin.

JUSTIN: This is it!

BRIAN: I don't really know how to get into this show, but we're going to do it anyway. I can't believe here it is, we're almost at 70 shows. We started in January 2004. By the way for those of you who are new to GCN Radio it's kind of "The First shall be last and the last shall be first." This is my last show as the original producer and co-host of GCN Radio. I guess there had to be a last one, and this is it. After this week, I'm going to be very much committed to my full-time job here in Muncie, Indiana. I'll have more to say about that later. What we want to do today is to look at the body of work that Justin and I have done together. This is very much kind of our little baby, Justin. Figuratively, of course. But, my goodness, this has been an amazing ride, an amazing journey, and when I meet my maker, when I see our Lord Jesus face to face, one of the things I will say is, I am so grateful for this opportunity to be a part of something very special, GCN Radio.

JUSTIN: Well we've all been so grateful to have you as a part of this. I know I've said this before, but I think it bears repeating. This show would not exist if it weren't for all of your hard work over the last three years. I mean, the effort you put into making this happen has been amazing. I remember when we first started the show, I was just... as we were just playing the intro, you remember back in the first show, we didn't have an intro.

BRIAN: That's right, we just had some kind of canned music. Really, for just the first year. I mean we really didn't have anything. We started off on that first show asking if people would come up with a theme, and that was....

JUSTIN: And we got some great ideas from that, but it turned out that you came out with this idea of doing an intro with clips from the show, which is better than what anyone could have done. The intro's changed a little bit, but it sets the right tone for the show, and it's such a cool thing to have. But, I mean, back in the first show we didn't have...

BRIAN: We barely knew what we were doing, and we only know slightly a bit more.

JUSTIN: And, I mean, we didn't know if anybody would listen.

BRIAN: And I resisted at first. I mean, we talked about this back in 2003, back in the Fall of 2003, and I am like, "ooohhhh, I don't know if I want to do this."

JUSTIN: I remember that conversation!

BRIAN: And then, you know, as I've told this story, I'm not going to tell the whole story again. But, to make this show successful, we had to make up a way to do this long distance. And, I happened to be working with FTP at my job, so we had a way to shuffle large files across the Internet, and that was really how the show finally came across, we just made this happen. I'm on the GCN Radio page right now, just looking back through the shows we've had, and I'm looking back at the show we did on April 3, 2004, with Oboeguy, who happens to be a personal friend of mine from Muncie, who joined GCN. I remember him telling a story on the show about how he felt rejected by the church he was leading music in, because of things the pastor was saying through the pulpit.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

BRIAN: And, that was just one of the themes of our time on GCN Radio. We've had a lot of guests who've gone through rejection of some kind. And then I also remember talking with Mark and ... which was another great show that we did on May 10, 2004, and on this clip we're going to play, he's again, talking about that feeling of rejection.

[clip begins]

MARK: I'm not out at all in my church for the simple reason that I teach Sunday School there to 3rd graders. And I'm still petrified as to if I was to come out at church. I have all of these knee-jerk reactions from parents who assume that since I'm gay I'm doing evil, evil things with there kids, which of course is not true, needless to say. I am just utterly terrified at that. Even with gay people being slowly and slowly more accepted secularly, we're also getting more accepted in the church, but unfortunately it's not moving fast enough to where I can come out at church. Unfortunately.

[clip ends]

BRIAN: That was Mark in '04, there. You know, we have GCN-ers going through these very same things today. And it's heartbreaking, and that is part of what gives me the motivation to keep doing the show, is gee, we have got a lot of work that is still yet to be done.

JUSTIN: Back in the early days of the show, we talked to a lot more people, just people. People we knew who had gotten involved in GCN, people we knew from other places. And, you know, we've had a lot more personal stories, and we've done that some more recently, but a lot of people we've had more recently are better known as authors or celebrities or musicians, but you know, some of those stories that we heard in the early days of the show were really powerful. I remember when we had Danny on the show.

BRIAN: ooooh, yeah!

JUSTIN: ...talking about his struggles with drug abuse and finding God, when Christians reached out to him.

[clip begins]

DAN: Now bear in mind I hadn't talked to my pastor in over a year in Fort Worth. I actually called him while I was cracked out on drugs and totally not doing well, I called him because I was fearing I would commit suicide or hurt myself, and I had already called my parents and they were on their way to pick me up from here in Austin, and somehow my pastor, who at the drop of the hat, came and sat with me until my parents got there, he gave me the name of the church in Austin. Now when I got here to Austin, I didn't look through the church. I wasn't looking for God; I wasn't looking for anything. I did everything that I possibly could to get out of the house as quickly as possible. I actually signed up to go through a drug rehab center, and they were not able to take me until Monday, and this was on a Friday night. I ended up calling the pastor of the church, because I found his number while I was packing my bag on a Sunday afternoon. He set up an appointment to meet to me on Monday, and I guess that really just directed my steps.

[clip ends]

BRIAN: That was really powerful.

JUSTIN: Oh, it was, it was so powerful to me, because I so often have been tempted, you know, as a gay Christian to distance myself from the worst parts of the gay sub-culture. You know?

BRIAN: yeah

JUSTIN: You know, the promiscuity and drug addictions? You know, those are problems that have existed in the gay subculture, and they exist in the straight culture as well, but there are a lot of really hurting gay people, who have felt rejected by everyone. And they get involved in a lot of self destructive behavior, so sometimes, I just want to kind of distance myself from that, and listening to Danny tell his story was just a wakeup call to me that we cannot just do that.

BRIAN: Absolutely.

JUSTIN: Ah, so many other, I remember when we had Sherri Cheeseboro on the show.

BRIAN: Ah, Sherri!

JUSTIN: She was so great talking about....

BRIAN: Totally

JUSTIN:... you know going through the ex-gay movement and her struggle to figure out who she was in Christ.

[clip begins]

SHERRI: I landed with GCN and that's been the one thing that's kind of helped me to start a dialogue with God again, and to take away some of the anger I feel. And to really make me think, okay, wait a second, this does not work, this de-gaying myself stuff. You know, if it's something that needs to be healed, Jesus is the great Physician, not me! So, if it's something that needs to be healed wouldn't God want to heal it. I mean, there's so many passages that talk about how he will give us the desires of our heart, how if we pray in His name, you know, not for a Lexus or something, but for something He wants He'll give it to us. I have prayed and I have cried and I have seen counselors and I have been to ministries; I mean, anything short of an exorcism, only because I didn't believe that was necessary. You know, I have done, and I am just as gay as I was the day before, and the day before that. So I started thinking, maybe, just maybe, it's not God that's wrong, or me being gay that's wrong, but the things I've been fed, the things I believe, but now I'm like, you know Lord, I'm not willing to go into bouts of depression, I'm not willing to escape through alcohol. I'm not willing to do any of these things. I want to live that abundant life that you talk about; there's got to be a way to find it. I want to know who I am and who You are.

[clip ends]

JUSTIN: Oh, I just want to go through and listen to all of the shows again.

BRIAN: Oh yeah, a trip down memory lane!

JUSTIN: You know, I've got some responses here from some of our listeners. I'll read a couple

BRIAN: Okay!

JUSTIN: There is a response from Lucy. Lucy says, "I've only been listening for the past few days, and already I love the show. I listen to it just before I go to bed and it gives me something to think about. I wish Brian good luck in anything else he does in the future. He truly is a blessing here on GCN"

BRIAN: Aw, thank you. That is very kind.

JUSTIN: Adam writes in: "Brian, you will be greatly missed. You've been an important part of GCN Radio and blend with Justin perfectly..." Wow we blend perfectly!

BRIAN: Oh wow, well, that's... that's great. Thank you!

JUSTIN: "I can't think of this show without you. Your kind words and humorous character will never be forgotten. I'm glad we have you frozen in time through the magic of the Internet, so we can go back and be impacted by your love for God and for other people once again. Your life is an encouragement to me."

BRIAN: aw. Thank you.

JUSTIN: "P.S. Are you and Justin getting divorced?"

BRIAN: [spitting laughing so hard]

JUSTIN: "Just kidding! I know you're not married" Of course we should again say for all of our new listeners to the show. Brian and I live in totally different parts of the country. We're not in a relationship. Brian is in a relationship.

BRIAN: Right.

JUSTIN: I am still hopelessly single, but uh...

BRIAN: Then that's probably a good time to play this call. We did get some phone calls, which I appreciated. And there is a particular that I think would be appropriate to play right now.

[phone call begins]

GUEST: Hi, if you look at Brian's GCN profile, you'll see that he's seeing someone special. Well, this is someone special, and I just want to say Brian, that I'm hoping you're enjoying all of the attention that you've been getting. But seriously, I just want to let you know that I love you very much and I'm happy, so very happy to be your special someone.

[phone call ends]

BRIAN: Thank you someone special! And that goes through Justin and I are very good friends, and we will continue to be, but no, we are not getting in divorce, because we were never married in the first place.

JUSTIN: And no, I think a lot of people are afraid because they think there's some dramatic something behind the scenes, that we had some big argument, and now Brian's leaving, and of course that's not true.

BRIAN: Absolutely not. No. And I will talk a little bit more a little bit more a little later in the show about kind of what I think I'll be doing at least in the immediate future. I would love to keep doing this show if it weren't for some other commitments and other needs that I need to fulfill. It's been a really, really great thing. Let's listen to another caller.

[phone call begins]

GUEST: Hi this is Will from Maine. I'm just calling to respond to the question from this week's podcast. I've only been listening to your podcast for a few months, so it's really hard for me to say which one is my most favorite. But, I must say that listening to this week and hearing "For Those Tears I Died," certainly touched me a lot, because I remember that song from an earlier time, when things were much simpler. As for a comment to Brian, I want you to know how much your work and effort has meant to me. For the first time in about a decade I was in a church last weekend, and certainly at GCN podcasts had a lot to do with me getting to that point, so Brian, just good luck in your future, and I hope it all works out well.

[phone call ends]

BRIAN: Aw, that's very kind.

JUSTIN: That is awesome.

BRIAN: And, you know, he brings up a point, of course, on the previous week's show, we had Marsha Stevens-Pino, an accomplished musician. Justin, you have introduced me to some amazing music and musicians that are really inspiring, and that rings a special chord with me, so to speak, because, I'm a musician in a first life, in my other life, I'm a musician at my church and do a little composing. So, the very first musical guest you introduced me to, and I remember you had come to visit here in Indiana because we were going to do some shows in person, and on the way back from the airport you said, "you've got to listen to this guy." And I was like, OK. And it was Steve Schalchlin

[song clip of "I Want to Make Music" underscores this section]

JUSTIN: Oh, that's right, yes.

BRIAN: And I continued to listen to Steve Schalchlin's music. Steve Schalchlin who we talked to back in July of '04. A man living with AIDS, an accomplished singer-songwriter and a playwright as well. He was quite an inspiration.

[clip begins]

STEVE: I like to write songs where I feel like I've plunged a knife into my arm and I have bled all of the disk, where you are getting raw emotions and real life and substance. I have spent hours and hours literally crying my eyes out wrangling over every single word and emptying my soul.

[clip ends] [song clip ends]

JUSTIN: Also, while we're talking about music....

BRIAN: K?

JUSTIN: The musical show that we did that's still the closest to my heart is Lee Bozeman's show that we did back ...

BRIAN: I knew you were going to say that!

JUSTIN: ...in August 11, 2006

[song clip begins]

JUSTIN: You know, that show was so exciting to me, because Lee, again, is not gay; he's one of the guests we've had on the show who is not gay, and isn't doing anything related to anything gay, but he just ... [laughter] ... I mean he's just my favorite Christian musician growing up. I mean, listening to Luxury and more recently to All Things Bright and Beautiful. Two bands that I know most of our listeners have never heard of, but like, I mean, you know, I listened to Luxury so much when I was younger, and to get my favorite Christian artist on the show and to get to interview him was like, "Ugh!" I'm still excited about it. That's still one of my all time favorite shows.

[clip begins]

LEE: I am a Christian. I am very much interested in Christianity as a Truth, you know? But I'm not at all interested in Christianity as a commodity, and I think that a lot of Christian music from the music that I'm familiar with which isn't very much, I don't know a whole lot that's going on in the Christian music industry, but lyrically, I think that certain images and ide-, taboos have to be maintained, you know? Try to kind of stay out of that in my mindset is different you know? I see life as much more of a sacramental thing, where everything participates in our salvation. Everything that we do and experience, and think, is an opportunity for repentance, an opportunity to turn back to God.

[clip ends] [song clip ends]

BRIAN: Well that's the advantage of having the resources of a program, you know? Hey! We can interview our favorite artists. Hey I'll come back immediately if we can get Olivia Newton John on the show, because she's my favorite.

JUSTIN: Right! Hahaha

BRIAN: Well, she's my favorite artist.

JUSTIN: Well, let's hear it from some more of our listeners, shall we?

BRIAN: Okay!

JUSTIN: Well, I'll start with a silly one Brian. Jason writes in, "Brian, where did you get the term 'princess points.' I laughed real big when you said that a few weeks ago. My partner and I have zero, maybe point five because we love little house and we cook. Other than that, we're small-town bearded Kentucky guys that don't seem to act gay at all. How would you rate us? Blessing in your new ventures. -Jason"

BRIAN: Aw! Well I didn't come up with the term princess points. That was a friend of mine who lives in my town about ten years ago, and I heard that and, let's see. What did I do? I mismatched my socks and my belt, or something. And he said, "Ohp! You lose princess points!" And I was like, "what?!" And he was like, "gay points!" And I was like, "Oh!" So now "princess points" is what me and all of my friends call your gay points, you know. What makes you stereotypically gay, liking musicals and listening to Madonna or whatever. And we've done a lot of shows about stereotypes like that, seeing that seems to be another recurring theme of, of, you know, just because you identify as gay or lesbian, bisexual or trans-gendered, does not mean you have to conform to a certain lifestyle and so often we're pressured into that but really that's not who we have to be.

JUSTIN: Stereotypes are definitely one of our common themes on our show. The other one is... food.

BRIAN: [laughing] yes!

JUSTIN: You know what would be interesting, to go...

BRIAN: Still waiting for those heart candies to arrive by the way.

JUSTIN: It would be really interesting to go back through all of the shows and pull all of the references to food and just string them together and [laughing] just hear like, all of the times that we've talked about food, because we've talked a lot about food.

BRIAN: Or have been eating while we have been doing a show, or had just eaten, and most of the time I have some kind of tasty drink with me while I'm... my coffee cup, [hearing the echo of speaking into the coffee mug] my coffee cup is empty right now! So unfortunately I can't drink any more coffee [whining]

JUSTIN: Awww!

BRIAN: Okay, I'm better.

JUSTIN: I have a can of soda here with me. Here we say soda, have we talked about this on the show? I think we maybe have.

BRIAN: Is it soda or pop?

JUSTIN: Soda or pop, right.

BRIAN: I say pop.

JUSTIN: Here it's soda. But, yeah, okay. Anyway. So uh [laughing] here's another response from a GCN listener: Brandy, Brandy writes in, "my plan was to call in for this question, but my phone seems to have other plans. In any case, I just wanted to take a few moments to say what GCN radio has meant to me. When I first came across GCN, like many members, I spent a great deal of time lurking before joining or posting on the boards. At the time, I was at a point in my life where I was all but ready to give up on God, feeling that he surely had given up on me. I came upon the GCN Radio page and randomly picked a show to download. If I recall correctly, it was the first show on which Jason and DeMarco had been interviewed, but that really doesn't matter, but what I remember was hearing these voices on the side of the radio, voices of men who truly love God and all of His children, but who are open and honest about their orientation. Later that week, I downloaded every podcast of GCN Radio that had been aired at that time, and put them on an MP3 CD, and for the next several days I listened to them over and over again as I traveled to and from school, and to visit my parents three hours away. It was GCN Radio that truly convinced me to join this site, and I'm so glad it did. Brian, through your selfless giving on GCN Radio, you literally gave me a new life physically and spiritually and I cannot thank you enough. Thank you for saving me from the darkness of my life as it would have been as I would have given up on God. May God continue to bless you and shed light upon your life as you move onto another chapter and know that we are all here loving and respecting the work that you've done for our community."

BRIAN: Aw! That's very touching. Thank you. All of these are overwhelmingly touching. And sometimes it's hard for me to sit here in my little studio in Muncie, Indiana, with my wondering how this show has touched as many people as it has, you know, with me talking about heart candies and drinking coffee! It's overwhelming to me to hear these responses and I'm glad that we've had this time. I'm glad that this three years has been what it's been to so many of you, so thank you again.

JUSTIN: Well I think it's that realism, it's that we're living our lives and we joke around and we talk about serious stuff, too, but I think that makes a difference to people. I think that people care about that, that neither of us have gotten up there and said that life is a piece of cake. Oh, there's another food reference!

BRIAN: haha

JUSTIN: You know, or that you become a Christian and everything is wonderful all of the time. But, I think that we have said that God can rock your world.

BRIAN: Yes.

JUSTIN: ....and change your life. And if you give your life to Christ, you won't ever be the same, and the fact that you're gay doesn't disqualify you from that. And I think that that is meaningful. I think that people need to know that.

BRIAN: I, I, Amen. And we've tried to make that point in a number of different ways on each of our shows. Let's listen to a couple of responses and we'll get back into some more memories.

[clip begins]

MICHAEL: Hi, Brian, it's Michael from St. Louis. You have been an absolute Godsend to everybody here on GCN, and I can't say enough about you. Your ministry is what you do on GCN Radio will be sorely missed. And I certainly do enjoy hearing your soothing, as someone put it, national public radio voice on there week in and week out. I wish you all of the very best for your future endeavors and just know that you've been a real great example of Christ's love, and you've showed that to me during the GCN conference in Seattle, and I really appreciate that. So, Brian, without further ado, I'll miss you, but I wish you all of the best of luck. God bless you my friend. Goodbye.

[clip ends]

BRIAN: Well, thank you very much. Thanks, Michael. Oh my goodness. This is, this is hard. But you know, we've had a lot of other guests. We've had some guests that's really done some incredible work out there in the world of gay Christian ministry, which is an area of ministry I hadn't heard of until I came to GCN, but there are people really out there doing this for work. Troy Perry, I mean, my goodness! The person who founded MCC. We were awfully lucky to find him and to have him share his story on our show. It was really amazing.

[clip beings]

TROY: "God," I said, "you know, I've done everything I can to find a place to go to church," and I said, "I just can't find any place. And if you want to see a church started, you know you call me to preach, and I believe the call of God without repentance, one of those scriptures from my Pentecostal background." And so, I said, "God if you want to see a church started as an outreach into the GLBT community, not a gay church, but an outreach into the GLBT, with our doors open out to everybody, you just let me know when." And that still, small voice said now, and with that I immediately started looking around, thinking how was I going to do this? And finally just decided, I am going to do it, God has called me to do this. And, that first service, you know, there were two things in it, that were wonderful. One was the music, I tape recorded the Mormon tabernacle choir, and we sounded like a thousand people in church that morning. And the other things was that I served communion, only three people came forward, but everybody was being, and you could have cut the Holy Spirit was so strong in that service, you could have cut it with a knife. And as I stated, within a year and a half, we bought our first piece of property and we were running over a thousand in attendance.

[clip ends]

BRIAN: Troy Perry, of course, the founder of the MCC church. So many of our listeners attend MCC churches throughout the country, and so we were awfully glad to have him on our program. And I'm also thinking of Mel White, who I had heard speak here at Ball State a number of years ago, and you know, we had him on the show, and he has really made a difference in a lot of people's lives. I feel very fortunate to have had that experience of interviewing those two amazing men.

JUSTIN: Definitely, and then, you know, one of my personal heros of course, Dr. Ralph Blair.

BRIAN: Oh yes, I do remember that show well. You had asked Dr. Blaire just a question about so often gay people are rejected by the church, you asked Dr. Blaire, have we as gay people also become lukewarm to the notion of embracing Christianity and this is what Ralph Blaire had to say.

[clip begins]

DR. BLAIRE: Well, yes, I think that the emphasis has shifted from integration of Christian faith and responsible homosexual lifestyle to simply being pro-gay. But I think on the other side, I think that the anti-gay conservative Christians are doing the same thing. So, it all comes down to kind of a cultural war between the right and the left on social issues, having to do with marriage for gay people and whatever, and the gospel is missed. I find it very interesting that in all of the controversies, for example, over the ordination of the Bishop who is openly gay: the Episcopal Bishop. People on both sides, the people who are supporting him and the people who are against him. All that they talk about is whether or not the person he's sleeping with is same gender, and I haven't heard anything about what his theology is. It seems to me that if he preaches the gospel, then the anatomy of his partner is irrelevant, and if he does not preach the gospel, then the anatomy of his partner is irrelevant.

[clip ends]

JUSTIN: Little did I know, back in June of 2004, when we had Ralph Blaire on our show, that he would end up being a Key Note Speaker at the GCN conference that we just had, so, so many more people got to hear him then in person. And that was wonderful. That is still one of my favorite shows just listening to Dr. Blaire, because I just love his perspective and his approach to being gay and Christian.

BRIAN: Well, Dr. Blaire has a giant ministry with the Evangelicals Concern Group. And then, someone else who is doing some wonderful work out there, is Justin Cannon.

JUSTIN: I was just thinking about Justin.

BRIAN: Justin, and the thing that I remember most about Justin was that his work trying to help people understand what the Bible really says about homosexuality and going back through the translations, and really understanding that, you know, God loves everybody. God does not condemn gay people.

JUSTIN: Well, Justin Cannon, of course, you know, talking about the Bible from a side A perspective, a perspective that supports gay marriage and then we had Matt Hall on the show, who, you know, takes the Side B approach, that gay Christians are called to celibacy, and we had him on the show and got to talk about his perspective on that.

BRIAN: Absolutely

JUSTIN: Another person who has a ministry that's a different sort of ministry, Patti Ellis...

BRIAN: Yes!

JUSTIN: Back in June 2004, who runs that site, familyacceptance.org, approaching things as a mom.

[clip begins]

PATTI: We just went through a lot of dark days and nights and prayer, my prayer every day, several times a day was sobbing tears, "God, please direct my feet, because I am so lost." And you know, in the Bible, it says, "Come to me as a little child." And I understand that now, because for the first time in my life, I came to God as a child for I did not know the answer. I was open, my heart was open, and then one day, finally, I was riding down the road and I realized that I had been making this whole journey about me, about how people were going to see me. How this is affecting me as a mother, how my pride was hurt, or whatever, and then finally I realized one day that this is really not about me. This is about my son, and he needs his mother. And I turned around and said, "I will be your mother and we will fight for your rights"

[clip ends]

BRIAN: This whole coming out thing that we go through is just as much a journey for the parents as it is for those of us who are GLBT. And, we struggle to come out to our families, but our families struggle, too. And, that, it doesn't make them bad or prude-ish or whatever if they don't understand us right at first. I mean, certainly, there is some really horrible stories out there, and I'm not demeaning them at all, but you take people like Patti Ellis and Sandi that we have on the show. They've gone on a journey, and now they are accepting, and it's a process for people.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

BRIAN: And that's what familycceptance.com tries to do, and that was why it was so amazing having Patti Ellis on the show.

JUSTIN: Yeah. So, let's hear from some more listeners. Keith writes in, "Brian, thank you for blessing us all and me personally through your work with GCN Radio. I first came to GCN about 6 months ago, and at that time, I was very uncomfortable with being gay and Christian. It was amazing to get to listen to so many previous episodes of GCN Radio in the following weeks. I actually got kind of spoiled, and now I find myself waiting impatiently for each new episode. Seriously though, you and Justin have had a profound impact on me as I have come to terms with my homosexuality as a Christian. I am sad to hear that you're leaving GCN Radio, but I understand how life can throw too much at you all at once. It's my prayer that God will bless you and continue to use to reach out to gay Christians in your daily life. I will miss hearing your voice. P.S. Justin: Good luck replacing a gem like Brian." Yeah, thanks, Keith, I'll need that luck! Oh my goodness! Al writes in, "Brian, you will be missed, and I hope that whomever replaces you is just as kind and compassionate as you are. God's blessings and grace to you in your future endeavors." And, Sam writes, "Hi. I've got a lot of things to say, which is why I didn't call. I listened to GCN radio for about a year now, and it is by the grace of God that I found GCN. I'm not active on the message boards, but I love listening to GCN Radio every Friday. And Brian, I will miss hearing your voice. I'm a 16-year old guy still in the closet, but I'm glad there's a place I can go to see where God is working in GLBT Christian's lives. I'm raised in a conservative Baptist family and was taught that being gay was a sin. I feel blessed to have GCN Radio in my currently confusing teenaged life, and I thank you so much Brian for making a cool radio for GLBT Christians. Thanks and God Bless. P.S. Tell Justin I said hi."

BRIAN: Justin, Sam says hi.

JUSTIN: Oh, thanks. Hi Sam!

BRIAN: [laughing] Oh, that's very kind. Thanks for those very, very kind words.

[phone call begins]

GUEST: Hey there Brian, this is Michael_7, and I just wanted to say thank you so much for this show. I know the hard work you put into this show through the editing, and you do a great job. I think this show is meaningful to many, including myself. I remember listening to this show for the first time with your guest Sherri Cheeseboro, and actually being a little afraid to listen to this show. And I remember listening and thinking, wow, these are the voices of gay Christians. And just hearing these voices over ... is really huge, and I think it really helps build bridges by hearing the voices. Especially for those more eye-splinted GCN-ers that don't have the physical community in their cities. In fact, I think that GCN was influential in me buying an iPod. I remember listening, wanting to listen to this show. I remember wanting to listen to this show in secret without having this on my computer with headphones on a short chord, so I actually bought an iPod. So thank again, Brian. Bye.

[phone call ends]

JUSTIN: Brian, it sounds like Steve Jobs should be thanking you.

BRIAN: Oh, yeah. I will be waiting for that call [laughing] and when Steve Jobs, you know, anyway... that would be terrific. Michael, thank you so much for that call.

JUSTIN: Well speaking of Steve Jobs, I mean, you know, we've had quite a few celebrity guests on our show...

BRIAN: Yes

JUSTIN: And we, you know, just recently of course, had actor Chad Allen on the show from Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman

BRIAN: Yes.

JUSTIN: And end of the spear. And we've talked about Jason and DeMarco, and then you know, do you remember one of our earlier shows we had Andrew Hyde, who was on the Amazing Race with his father.

BRIAN: Yes, Aw, Man that was an amazing show.

JUSTIN: That was, that was a fun show, and then, filmmaker Brian Dannelly, the writer and director of the film Saved. You know, a lot of people don't realize that we had him on the show, because our listening audience was a bit smaller back in 2004, and so folks who haven't gone back and listened to that sometimes I'll be talking about someone and they'll be talking about Saved, and I'll be like, "yeah, yeah, we had the writer and director of Saved on the show." And, they'll be like, "really?" But we've had a lot of just you know, great celebrity guests, but then, and then, also you know, I mean, I still enjoy the regular people we had. I remember having Dennis on the show.

BRIAN: mhm

JUSTIN: Talking about being a gay young person.

[clip begins]

DENNIS: I guess the thought that goes through my head before, you know, coming out to someone is, what are they going to think, and how are they going to feel themselves, and when it came to one of my good friends, she became very apologetic and said, "I'm so sorry I've said those things." You know with like a gay joke here or there. And I'm like, it' just like any other joke, you know, or a racial or things of that, you know, you have to have a sense of humor about these things. I'm kind of afraid that if I do come out to them, I might be breaking their trust or hurt them in some way, and it's almost like a personal thing that where, I'm a little bit more humble about it, because, um, er, I'm not sure if humble's the right word, but it just feels like, you know, if it happens to happen if it doesn't it doesn't, and sometimes, I'd rather have some people ask me then me tell them.

[clip ends]

BRIAN: It was great having Dennis on GCN Radio

JUSTIN: You know, he had such a great story, and then people like, I'm sorry, there are so many shows, but I was thinking about having Dr. David Meyers on the show just recently, talking about, you know we've done a lot of issues shows, and that's another one where we talk about why are we gay? I think that that is one of my all-time favorites, because I was a psych major, and so talking about the psychology of it all, to hear a psychologist I respect and admire to come on and talk about what the science says about why people are gay or straight.

BRIAN: A very powerful show. Powerful stuff and answered a lot of questions.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

BRIAN: And speaking of celebrities, I'm looking at the show we did on October 20, 2005, just after you, Justin, were on the Dr. Phil show. And there you are, looking so very professional, and in the three years you've done this, GCN has grown, and you have grown to, dare I should say, celebrity status yourself, because of the work that you're doing out there on the Dr. Phil show, I remember watching it with my roommate and we made a big thing out of it, we both rearranged our schedules to come home and watch it and you were on such a short segment, but you were debating somebody who had been through ex-gay therapy and was defending ex-gay ministry, and really Ex-gay ministries has been another theme of the three years of GCN Radio. We talked earlier about Sherri Cheeseboro, but we also had Peterson Toscano on the show.

JUSTIN: Oh yes! Peterson with the homo, no mo' halfway house.

BRIAN: Yes! His one man show, his humorous one man show, which he's still performing; he's still touring. And he took a very difficult time in his life and turned it into an entertaining act that also educates people. But when we had Peterson on GCN radio, I remember asking him, just how much money has he spent trying to get straight.

[clip begins]

PETERSON: Probably I've spent over 25,000 dollars...

JUSTIN: Whoa

PETERSON: ...in counseling and in the ex-gay movement. And yeah, it was about 17 years of my life that I spent trying to get straight, so unsuccessfully. And in the end after I graduated successfully from the Love in Action ex-gay program in Memphis, I was attempting to live as an ex-gay man, and the burden of it overwhelmed me. Everyday waking up thinking about all of the places I couldn't go and all the things that I couldn't think. How futile it seemed, because I seemed so weak next to my same-sex desires. And finally, one day I just woke up and said, "What in the world are you doing? This is just crazy. You've done everything in your power to change. You've prayed every morning for years. I've done everything I could imagine short of a frontal lobotomy." And I was like, this doesn't work and if God really wants to change me, then it's his turn, because I've done my part, because clearly he's not holding up his end of the bargain, so hang it. I'm done. And in a way that was the first step in coming out, and then as most coming out experiences, it was progressive. I began to come to the place where I acknowledged that I was gay; I accepted it. I announced it and now I'm in the place of embracing it.

[end clip]

JUSTIN: Well, I have always said, that you can choose your behavior. You can always choose how you want to behave, but you can't choose what you feel. You cannot decide, I'm going to be attracted to this; I'm not going to be attracted to that. That's not something you get to choose.

BRIAN: Right

JUSTIN: But you can always choose your behavior, which is where we have the whole Side A/Side B debate.

BRIAN: Absolutely, yeah. Other than the music shows and all of our guests have meant something special to me. But, the Christmas shows have meant the most to me, getting to hear people's responses, but probably my... it would be hard for me to pick an all-time favorite show, and I'm not going to do that, but certainly in the top five would be the show where you and I read scripture on Good Friday. That meant a lot to me, personally. The passion of our Lord, that hearing the text always, always impacted me ever since I was a little boy, and being able to present that, Justin, with you my friend and my coworker for our listeners meant absolutely the world to me.

JUSTIN: Awesome

BRIAN: So that's one that I'll always remember.

JUSTIN: Aw, I enjoyed that one as well. A few more listeners here. Tim writes after listening to last week's show: "Oh my gosh, what a show! I've just gotten back into listening to the show again, and wow! What I've missed. Marsha," talking about Marsha Stevens-Pino we had last week, "Marsha is such an inspiration. As someone who's struggling with being involved with music in my church due to being in a relationship, Marsha's story has really inspired me to not give up on my calling and my gift, and the dream given to me by God. The words that I've just heard are still echoing through me, and I'm starting to get back my sense of excitement for using music for God, particularly as a gay man. Thank you for doing this show, and thank you Marsha for doing what you do and for being such a shining example."

BRIAN: Aww, That's very nice.

JUSTIN: And then, I'll read one more text response. This one is from Leon. And Leon writes, "A favorite show? I could no sooner choose a favorite star in the heavens. Seriously, though, I can't pick one, so I'm not going to. I think that the archive of shows offers us a small glimpse of the extraordinary community of Christians God has brought together, and it fills me with hope for the future. "Would you take a pill to change your orientation" is still the most captivating show for me. Irrespective of how I feel today I recognize something of myself in all of the responses, and I'm grateful for the honesty of the respondents. And he's talking about the show that was on September 30, 2005, when we played a bunch of listener responses to that question about taking a pill to change your orientation. So Leon continues, "I also really enjoy the Christmas shows, listening to lots of cheerful greetings from other GCN-ers. My favorite guests so far have been Matt Hall," who we just talked about, the Side B guy, "and Eric from 2 worlds' collision who both challenged my understanding of gay and Christian issues. But more than anything, what keeps me coming back is the sense that God is doing wonderful work through GCN and GCN Radio. And I want to hear more. Brian, we will all miss your wonderful laugh, kind words and generous spirit. Thank you for the past three years. Much love to all - Leon"

BRIAN: Aww, thanks Leon. And here's another response that was phoned in.

[phone call begins]

GUEST: Hey Brian, first Brian, this is the other Brian in Sacramento, and I just can remember when I first joined GCN and your wonderful welcome and your beautiful work with GCN radio, and I just wanted to give you my thanks, and may God bless you in what you're doing right now, and of course I hope you come back to GCN Radio, but I just wanted to say that I love you and wish you all the best in the work that you're doing, you know.

[phone call ends]

BRIAN: Yes, thank you Brian, that was of course, one of my good friends from one of the early days of GayChristian.net message board; still a friend, we met in person for the first time at the past conference, but the reference to first Brian and second Brian: he came to the message board a little bit after I did, so that's where that all came from. So, thanks Brian for your kind words. I appreciate that. I've really appreciated more than I can express with words everyone who's called in today and written in. I really, really appreciate that, and I'm frankly overwhelmed, and I'm very touched by this, and I just want people to know that if you know me outside of GCN Radio. If you know me just as me, I'm actually a pretty normal guy, who happens to have some editing skills, who happened to find out about GCN at a Dignity meeting, and the show was born and I just did what I could. I haven't done anything heroic, I haven't done anything out of the ordinary, I've just, I've just taken skills that I had and, and, and did what I thought needed to be done at the time, and that I was able to. And really, I don't think God calls us to much more than that. You know? If all of us just did what we could, whether that's holding the door for someone, or letting somebody pass you on the road, you know, when you're in a hurry, or just doing whatever it is that you can do: your little part. You don't' have to stretch yourself too much to be a real light to someone. And I think that's one of the things I want to leave people with. It's just do whatever small thing you can for the kingdom.

JUSTIN: Wow. Wow. Man. [sighing] It's... It's... what can I say? It's been a joy and a pleasure working with you for the last three years.

BRIAN: well....

JUSTIN: And I find myself right now at a loss for words, because I know that you've got a lot of great things going on in your life, and I know that it's going to be good for you to be able to spend time focusing on those things, but you know, it's going to be, of course, the show will continue to exist. For anyone out there who's worrying about that. We will continue to do new episodes of GCN Radio for you. You know, it won't be....

BRIAN: And I will be listening!

JUSTIN: And sitting there going, "I wouldn't have made the edit that way"

BRIAN: [laughing] No, no, no, no, no! I won't be saying that at all. I hope that it continues, I plan for it to continue. We want, you know, we've started something that we just hope grows. Someone has to start something and you know, and you and I have done that and I wish for it to continue and to grow.

JUSTIN: You know it's going to be hard without you. It's, It's, we're going to miss you. I'm going to miss you.

BRIAN: I'm going to miss you. And Justin, I look back at the people who have influenced my life, to a capital extent, and you are among those people that have, you have changed my life, just by being my friend, and my coworker, but for having GCN, which is so powerful and has changed so many lives. You are, you're changing the world, Justin, and I feel honored and blessed and privileged to be your friend, mostly, and to have been part of the ground floor of such a great organization. Thank you. Thank you. THANK YOU!

JUSTIN: Stop! You're supposed to be the one crying; not me!

BRIAN: You are, you are amazing, and you're great!

JUSTIN: Oh no!

BRIAN: And everybody get to know Justin, because he's the real-meal-deal. He's all that and a bag of chips. So.

JUSTIN: And that bag of chips, does not contain olestra!

BRIAN: Oh, hahaha [a smacking sound is heard in the background as he tries to catch his breath].

JUSTIN: So?

BRIAN: Oh goodness, oh goodness.

JUSTIN: I had to make one more food reference while you are here.

BRIAN: Yeah, well. Thanks again for everything. A couple of things here before I go. First of all, people have been asking what am I going to be doing once I am finished after this program is edited and up on the website. I hope to take some time to maybe rest and prioritize and take care of my health, which was my original reason for needing to leave GCN Radio, so I hope to do some of that, but somehow I continue to stay busy and committed to things, especially my full time job in public radio. Starting in the next couple of weeks, we will be starting our annual fund raiser, but right after that, we're moving, the radio station that I work for is moving to state of the art facilities in April, and that is going to consume all of my time through probably mid-may. It's a big deal, we're getting all kinds of new stuff, and I have to find a way to keep some here! And this summer, I'm going to be working on a music CD, so it's something that I really felt called to at the conference, so you can thank Yolanda and pastor Lee Thompson for awakening in me the need to go back and do some more music. The other thing I wanted to say. Find good in each day. And this is something that I've learned from my dad. You know, pain is all around us. I mean, I was a little kid who was very, very sick. And, my mom would take me to Riley hospital for children in Indianapolis, and she would come home crying and go, "Oh, honey! All of those sick little babies, you know, they're all hurting and dying and it's horrible and what's going to happen to her little boy!" and my dad said, "Well, honey, what about the babies that make it, and that go home and live great lives, you know? Do you think about them?" And that's what I mean. Find the good. The bad is not hard to find, but develop the skill of looking for something good in your daily life. For me, just looking out my kitchen window and seeing sunshine. Maybe that's the only good thing that happened today, but it is one good thing, so you have to develop the skill of looking for something good in each day. Part of the kingdom is right now, is in God's creation, in the people that he brings into our lives and I want to leave people with that; to celebrate what's good and learn to look for it. And finally, know that God really loves you. I am still struck by the audacity that someone would have to tell someone that the kingdom is denied to them, or that God's love is denied to them. I mean, that's hearsay, folks. God loves each of us despite whatever sinfulness we have, despite who we're attracted to. God's love is for everyone. It's said in scripture: everybody is invited to the table. And, if people can just find good in each day and know that God loves you, then I've gotten my message out there.

JUSTIN: [sighing] Thank you Brian. I...I...I...I...I don't want to end the show today. Can we just keep going?

BRIAN: [polite laughter] I wish we could.

JUSTIN: All right.

BRIAN: Well good luck Justin.

JUSTIN: Thank you.

BRIAN: I am not far away. I am easily reached. I will continue to be present on the GCN message boards, as much as I am able, and who knows what my long term plans are. I don't know what my long term plans are. That's going to take some discernment and some prayer. I know the rest of this calendar year I think God's got my plate pretty full, but long term, I don't know. But I will certainly keep the comments that we've heard and this three years close to my heart as I try to discern what God's will is for my long-term ministry plans.

JUSTIN: Well, keep in touch, let us know how everything is going with you.

BRIAN: I will.

JUSTIN: All right, well we're going to be doing more GCN Radio, but we're not going to have a show next week. We're going to take a little bit of a break. But, keep watching and we'll have more of GCN Radio coming at you very soon. I'm not going to do a question this week, because I'm just too exhausted after saying goodbye to Brian, it's so sad [choking on tears]. But we'll have another GCN Radio coming at you soon. So, stay tuned, and everyone make sure you say a prayer for Brian and for God's blessings on him going forward in his life. So...

BRIAN: Thanks guys!

JUSTIN: All right, well... Shall we wrap it up Brian?

BRIAN: We might as well. We, you know, the future can only begin if we put a close to the past, and we look forward to whatever is next for both of us, for the program, for GCN Radio, and for all of those of you who are listening in your lives. We are united in God's love, and that's the celebration. That's why today is a good day. Celebrate that and know that how much you're loved and cared for. Until we meet again, I'm Brian.

JUSTIN: [hesitantly] And I'm Justin. We'll have a brand new GCN Radio with new format and all kinds of good stuff coming at you here in the next few weeks.

BRIAN: God Bless and Take Care.

[Outro Music]