GCN Radio - June 26, 2006
Transcribed by MyckeyD

To listen to this episode, visit http://www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio

[GCN Radio theme music plays]

JUSTIN: Brian?

BRIAN: Yes, Justin?

JUSTIN: [Silent pause then laughs]

BRIAN: [Giggles]

JUSTIN: I want to talk about church signs. Do you ever like drive down a country road and see those churches with those silly signs?

BRIAN: I have to say my church has one of those silly signs!

JUSTIN: [Gasps] What's it say? Does it say something stupid?

BRIAN: I, I--to be perfectly honest, I can't remember. But it's something always really dorky. [Laughs]

JUSTIN: I think they are really kind of dorky. I was reading this thing on the Internet...

BRIAN: Um-hmm.

JUSTIN: And it had a list of some of these silly church signs. [Sighs] They're so bad! Like, "To prevent sin burn," S-I-N, "To prevent sin burn, use Son screen." S-O-N.

BRIAN: [Moans] Oh!

JUSTIN: [Laughing]

BRIAN: I wish I had a sound effect of people going "Boo!"

JUSTIN: Another one says, "God answers KNEE-mail." K-N-E-E.

BRIAN: Oh! Ew!

JUSTIN: Or what about, "Wal-Mart is not the only saving place!" [Stifling laughter] Like some of them get really ridiculous! [Laughs]

BRIAN: Oh my goodness! Now, is this a national--is this a list somewhere? Because, I think my church may be pulling from this very list that you're quoting from right now.

JUSTIN: No. Well, I haven't found "The Master List." If there's a "Master List" somewhere, somebody send us a link to it.

BRIAN: Now, are there others there that you can, you know, just humor me with maybe a couple more of those.

JUSTIN: Oh, lets see...um, one says "Welcome to our Ch__ch. What is missing? U R"

BRIAN: Okay. [Laughs]

JUSTIN: "Stop, drop, and roll does not work in Hell." Um...

BRIAN: Okay...?

JUSTIN: "You Won't Be Too Busy To Die." That one is really uplifting there.

BRIAN: Oh that one's going to make me run to that church!

JUSTIN: Yeah. "God does not believe in atheists, therefore atheists do no not exist." Uh, I don't know.

BRIAN: Right.

JUSTIN: Here's another like cheesy, corny one, "It's hard to stumble when you're on your knees."

BRIAN: Oh, gosh.

JUSTIN: Or--I don't even know what this one means--somebody tell me what this one means because I don't get it: "Too many people today are not fishers of men but keepers of the aquarium." I mean I get the "fishers of men" reference but what is the "keepers of the aquarium"?

BRIAN: What? That baffles me, too. I don't get that one.

JUSTIN: Oh, oh, oh! Maybe its because they're focusing on the fish that have already been caught, instead of fishing for more. Maybe that's it.

BRIAN: That's it. That's a puzzle right there.

JUSTIN: Oh my goodness.

BRIAN: Well, that's very interesting.

JUSTIN: Oh wait, here's one more...

BRIAN: Okay?

JUSTIN: "Heavenly Forecast: Reign Forever!" Reign, like a king. [Laughs]

BRIAN: R-E-I-G-N. Good, good, good. Yeah. Good, alrighty then.

JUSTIN: Dumb! Dumb, dumb, dumb. In addition to the regular--we're going to get to the regular "Question of the Week" later in the show--but in addition to the regular "Question of the Week" if anybody has any really good ones they want to share send those to us on our contact page at www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio because I would love to see some of them, maybe we'll talk about them on a future show.

BRIAN: These remind me of the "Church Bulletin Bloopers" that are so familiar to many people.

JUSTIN: Oh, right!

BRIAN: Maybe I'll read those on a future show. Now, that'll be a riveting program! [Chuckles]

JUSTIN: [Laughs] Well, you know it's, oh my goodness! It's on the one hand they can be kind of cute, and make people laugh, and make people smile as they're driving. On the other hand, they do kind of make us look silly sometimes.

BRIAN: Yeah. They do.

JUSTIN: Like we don't take our faith very seriously.

BRIAN: Yeah, and maybe there can be other things that we can be putting on there. Although, when pressed to regurgitate a different thing to put on a church sign, I cannot come up with one for the life of me! So I guess that's why they put these things on there, for lack of something better. But still, they are silly.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

BRIAN: But then again it serves a purpose. I mean, you know people go home and say, "Can you believe what they put on that church sign, 'The forecast is Reign Forever' ha ha ha!" So, it gets people talking. Maybe. Maybe that's the point.

JUSTIN: I guess so. But, it, I don't know, to me it kind of has a hokey, sort of a kitschy kind of a feel. Which, I don't know. I really want something more out of church. I don't mean to offend any of our listeners who have church signs out front that say "Souled out" S-O-U-L...or you know, "We use duct tape to fix every thing, God used nails."

BRIAN: That makes you go "hmm."

JUSTIN: That one is kind of like, it's kind of clever, but then does it trivialize the crucifixion? I don't know. I don't know, you can voice your opinion to us and let us know.

BRIAN: Totally.

JUSTIN: As always, if you have any comments on the show, we'd love to hear them.

BRIAN: Well that's a fun thing. Thanks for sharing that. That's neat.

JUSTIN: It's uh...OH! Wait, wait, wait! Oh, I just found another one!

BRIAN: Oh no!

JUSTIN: "Prevent Truth Decay," T-R-U-T-H, "Prevent Truth Decay, Brush-Up on your Bible!" [Laughs]

BRIAN: [Laughs] Oh my goodness!

JUSTIN: [Sighs in laughter]

BRIAN: Oh my goodness! You know, I think my church may have used that very one before. It seems that I've heard that before.

JUSTIN: Oh no! All right, well anyways, I think we're going to talk about some actual happenings, actual news and things going on.

BRIAN: Guess lots has been going on.

JUSTIN: Yes.

BRIAN: One of the things in the news is the Episcopal Church.

JUSTIN: Yeah. The first female presiding Bishop was elected; and there's this whole thing about gay clergy in the Episcopal Church. The Anglican Church worldwide, which the U.S. Episcopal Church is--you know--is a part of, is NOT supportive of the idea of having gay clergy in the church.

BRIAN: Right.

JUSTIN: At least, well, I should clarify: "partnered" gay clergy. Those that are non-celibate gay clergy, I should say. The Episcopal Church in the U.S. tends to be more theologically liberal than sort of the Anglican Church worldwide. So as a result there has been a lot of strain between the U.S. Episcopal Church and the broader Anglican Church about this issue of gay clergy. So there's been some pressure for the Episcopal Church to make some sort of a ruling, some sort of a statement, and to stop ordaining gay clergy. Of course, we had Gene Robinson being the first openly gay bishop, and you know it's been very controversial. And so now there's been a movement and people saying, "Okay, we need to say that we're not going to do this anymore, that we're not going to ordain gay bishops. We're not going to ordain gay clergy, at all." Uh...

BRIAN: And while we're at it, let's not ordain anyone with brown hair.

JUSTIN: Well, I mean...

BRIAN: or any one with purple eyes.

JUSTIN: Purple eyes? [Laughs]

BRIAN: I don't know. I don't see how this is focusing on cultivating Christ's love. How do you know they're gay?

JUSTIN: Well, you know, it's a big struggle. Because, in their defense, there's a lot of discussion right now about, "What does the Bible say about homosexuality?" And for those who believe that the Bible condemns same-sex relationships, for someone to be put in a leadership position in the church who is openly practicing a same-sex relationship, seems inappropriate. I think this is unfortunate that this issue is becoming the issue that is dividing the church. And this is part of the concern; this is part of what brought about this vote where initially, I think it on Tuesday they basically decided that they weren't going to do anything. That they were not going to stop ordaining gay bishops. And then on Wednesday, they changed their minds, sort of. And they adopted a resolution which, um, let me quote this here, it uh, asks those in authority in the church "to exercise restraint by not consenting to the consecration of any candidate for bishop whose manner of life presents a challenge to the wider church and will lead to further strains on communion."

BRIAN: Ow.

JUSTIN: So now, what does that mean exactly? I think they left that somewhat deliberately vague. I think they left that as sort of a compromise position. It is saying, "Please don't elect people who are going to be divisive in the church by the very nature of their election." But then, well, you know...

BRIAN: Right.

JUSTIN: Then it's all on how you interpret that and how you apply that. So then, who knows how that's going to come out? And then over in the Presbyterian Church U.S.A., we also had a vote this week. The Presbyterian Church U.S.A. voted 298-221 in their national assembly to--now this is really confusing--they want to allow congregations to exercise flexibility when they're appointing clergy so that sexual orientation is not a deciding factor. In other words they want to allow you to, as you know, as a local congregation, they want to allow you to make a decision about who you are going to put in a position of leadership that is not going to be based entirely on that person's sexual orientation. So, that they're "being gay" does not automatically bar them from leadership. BUT, at the same time they did not overturn the existing church law in the Presbyterian Church U.S.A. that limits sexual relations among clergy to heterosexual marriage.

BRIAN: Okay. [Laughs] Okay, wow, that's, that is confusing!

JUSTIN: So, right now what they're essentially saying is, "Clergy aren't supposed to be having sex outside of heterosexual marriage, BUT, feel free to use your discretion when choosing who those clergy will be, even if they're gay."
Now, I don't know whether this is intended...

BRIAN: [Sighs] People can't see me shaking my head right now.

JUSTIN: See, when I read that, the first thought that I have is: maybe this is intended to open the door a bit wider for celibate gay people, but all the news articles I've read suggest that the discussion in the assembly was much broader than that that they were actually talking about "partnered" gay people. You know, that they're basically trying to open the door to say that you can have "partnered" gay clergy, even though the law says that they're not supposed to be having sex. So, it's just confusing. It's...[Laughs]

BRIAN: Yeah, the divisions just keep getting deeper.

JUSTIN: Exactly! We're seeing some groups in the church seeking to strengthen their stands that homosexuality is wrong, and other groups seeking to be more inclusive more open and more welcoming of gay people and they're moving in opposite directions. And within each of these groups are churches on both sides that are in the minority within the larger group and then those churches are sometimes being kicked out, sometimes deliberately withdrawing themselves, sometimes trying to work within the larger group that doesn't agree with them, and the church is really splintering over this issue. And I can't think of any issue we've had, in a number of years that has split the church like this. I mean the last one that occurs to me, that really has had this kind of divisive impact on the church is, like, Slavery. You know?

BRIAN: We talked a couple weeks ago on a different show about being angry about these things. Today, I'm angry. What is it about this one thing? We're not talking about Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I mean, obviously we are talking about Leviticus and St. Paul. And we're talking about Biblical interpretation. Why are we dealing with all of this when we have people being killed around the world through war or starvation or neglect? What are we doing for love, how is this promoting love? And I don't mean to get everyone all upheaval and everything. But I'm really feeling like "Golly, Lord help our churches! Show us Your way, because we are divided and You call us to be united."

JUSTIN: It's a real, real struggle because on the one hand we do need unity, in the body of Christ. We're clearly called to that. At the same time, these are important issues, I mean they're not the most important issues, and you make an excellent point that they are not the most important issues and we need to be focusing on other things that the church can be doing. At the same time, you know, this is not the first time and certainly will not be the last time that the church has had to deal with an issue that was divisive.

BRIAN: Maybe I just need to kind of come off it a little bit and realize that this is dialogue and sometimes it's nasty.

JUSTIN: Well, I just hate to see it.

BRIAN: We just have to plow through it. This is the process to hopefully one day getting to the point where this isn't an issue. But maybe to get there we have to go through the mud and go through this nastiness and all this quibbling over this and that and the other.

JUSTIN: And I think that it is particularly frustrating for those who are in the church, who are gay and love God and want to serve the church and right now by their very existence are caught in the middle of this. You know?

BRIAN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: They are controversial, simply because they exist.

BRIAN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: And if they would simply say, "You know, I don't feel called to the ministry" in some sense the issue would go away for a little while and yet if they feel that call, you know, they have to follow it. At the same time, those within the church who think it's wrong obviously need to be honest about why that's important to them and that conversation needs to happen. I just hate that it seems to be so divisive and there's a lot of just misinformation on both sides.

BRIAN: And that's why I continue to be committed to doing GCN Radio. Because, not that I don't think that GCN Radio in and of itself can, you know, "change all these lives" and help people come to Christ. But I do think, there needs to be a voice out there of reason that says, "You know, even though we are debating these issues, the core of Jesus' teachings is love and acceptance." Not maybe always agreement, but love and acceptance is somehow what we have to get back to. I'm sorry, see I'm on the soapbox today!

JUSTIN: [Laughs]

BRIAN: You're usually the one on the soapbox! [Laughs] I'm really on one today, I guess!

JUSTIN: And I want to make this point because it is not a "cheap grace" that Jesus offers. Because I think the danger that exists on "The Left" in the church is danger of falling into this trap of cheap grace where all we talk about is love and acceptance and there's no accountability. We do have accountability. We do need to live holy lives. We do need to live in accordance with what God wants for us. But we also need to understand the over-arching theme of scripture is NOT about how bad we are, but about the fact that we've been redeemed! That God is so gracious and so merciful that no matter who we are, no matter what we've done, God loves us, and God has made a way to forgive us; and that message often is getting lost in these debates!

BRIAN: Right.

JUSTIN: You know?

BRIAN: And that's what I'm trying to say, I guess, in my little tirade.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

BRIAN: By no means am I saying that we should throw everything out, all the rules are gone, and we just love each other, you know, almost how it was in the Seventies.

JUSTIN: Right! [Laughs]

BRIAN: But, I'm just saying, "Let's not lose that message." That's my point. And when I hear these news stories that are vaguely worded and confusing, and I don't think are directly SOLVING anything, we're just miring ourselves further into division.

JUSTIN: Oh, yeah.

BRIAN: It doesn't help. It doesn't help my mood. [Laughs]

JUSTIN: These debates happen and then a resolution gets past, and another resolution gets past, and the wording is vague and it says things to appease these people, and says these things to appease those people...we do, we need something more. We need some REAL dialogue going on, and it's happening but it's not happening on as broad a scale as it needs to.

BRIAN: Right.

JUSTIN: But, you know, you were talking about why we're here. Why we're here at GCN, and why we're here on GCN Radio. And it made me think, you know? We asked a question a couple weeks ago about "people being different," and the GOOD side of being different. It was interesting to me that...

BRIAN: Oh yeah, we asked that on the "X-Men" show.

JUSTIN: Yeah, yeah! And some of the responses that we got, talked a little bit about being gay and GCN Radio being an important part of people's coming to terms with things. And so you made me think of that.

BRIAN: Oh that's so nice.

JUSTIN: Anyway, I just wanted to hit, at least, just a couple of the responses from that show, if that's okay.

BRIAN: That would be terrific, great!

JUSTIN: Uh, let's see...I'm just going to hit a couple here. This one is from Joel, who writes, like many of our listeners that wrote in about being gay as one of the things that make them different, or, this case being a gay Christian.
He says, "Being a gay Christian has given me a unique perspective on life. I personally value the ability to see all sides of a position. It enables me to effectively weigh out what really matters. Because I have this ability or POWER, I have been able to transfer it to other situations and help others see things in ways they have not thought of."

BRIAN: Hmm.

JUSTIN: That's an interesting way of looking at what's positive about being different there, being able to see all sides.
John B, who identifies himself as "The Gay Aussie Triplet..." [Laughs]

BRIAN: [Laughs] Okay.

JUSTIN: That's quite a...

BRIAN: There you go, that's a special power, right there!

JUSTIN: There you go, "The Gay Aussie Triplet."
John says, "The pivotal thing that makes me different is being gay. (Apologies if I'm being unoriginal.)"

That's okay John, you were one of many who said this. But it's a good thing. This is, for many of us, you know, the central thing.

He says, "I've been forced to come to terms with being different because I'm gay. Or should I say, FEELING like I was different. Consequently, I find that I feel more LIBERATED to move away from the stereotypes that people have of me, because of who they believe me to be. I can embrace other things that make me different. I also believe because of my personal journey to accepting and embracing who I am there are things that I have learned from that experience that make me a better person than I might otherwise have been had I not had those experiences." And he says, "God bless you for such a great show." Thanks, John.

BRIAN: Aw, thank you!

JUSTIN: On a completely different note, though, we got a call from one of our most frequent callers, who always has something insightful to say.

BRIAN: Ah, yes.

JUSTIN: Jenny, formerly of Canada, now in--where is she--Korea?

BRIAN: Korea, I think she said.

JUSTIN: Korea!

BRIAN: Well, shall we hear from Jenny?

JUSTIN: Let's listen to what Jenny has to say.

JENNY: Hi, this is Jenny calling, from Korea. I was calling to respond to this week's question about what makes us different. So what makes me different? Of course there's the gay thing. But that's not really readily apparent to anyone just looking at me. The difference I am most aware of is that, I am, I am overweight. Yes, I realize this isn't a genetic condition or anything but I am hyper-aware of it; and quite sensitive about it, actually. I'm kind of shocked that I'm talking about this OUT LOUD, in a forum where people can actually hear me! [Nervous laughter] Anyway, it makes me especially different living here in Korea, as Koreans tend to be quite thin. I often get stared at, and pointed at, laughed at actually while walking down the street. So, what good has come from this difference of mine? So it's kind of a hard question for me to answer because, you know, simply for health reasons alone I should be more focused on losing the weight. But I think I can say that having this difference hanging over me all the time has helped me to be a lot less likely to judge other people, based on their appearance, than I would think I would be naturally inclined to do. I also think that this helps me, as a teacher, to have more compassion for those children who are different in any way. This is not to say that I should just stay the way I am, but it's good to look back at who I've been and see that it hasn't all been a bad thing. So, thanks for asking this question. I think it's a good one for people to ask themselves.

BRIAN: Wow.

JUSTIN: Thanks Jenny!

BRIAN: Wow, and Jenny, thanks for having the courage to share that on our show.

JUSTIN: I love that she said that.

BRIAN: That was wonderful. I myself grew up having disabilities and certainly, there were periods in my life, depending on what type of medicine I had to take, my appearance was altered. And so, I can totally relate to what Jenny said. And it's true; that it gives you a totally different perspective on other people and on life. There's power in that.

JUSTIN: Yeah, yeah. Well! Wow!

BRIAN: I'm glad that everyone called in; I think that's great. We've got some good responses, there.

JUSTIN: We're already getting great responses to our question from last week so, you guys have to hang on and hear that on a future show.

BRIAN: Terrific, terrific.

JUSTIN: So, I'm going to go in a totally different direction with the question this week. I want to hear from our listeners about their favorite passage or story from the Bible.

BRIAN: Oooooh! Good question!

JUSTIN: Because the Bible, you know, for us as gay Christians, a lot of us have been beaten over the head with the Bible. It's really easy to be frustrated when people bring up the Bible and to begin to take it out on the Bible itself, as if it was the "Bible's fault" that people are misusing it. The Bible is such an important book! It's such an important part of our faith. I want to encourage all of our listeners to really have reverence for it, and develop a love for it, if you don't have that already.

BRIAN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: And so, I think part of that is I would really like to hear from ALL of our listeners. You've certainly got something, unless you're just not really familiar with the Bible at all, in which case you might learn something. Your favorite story, the one that's always been an inspiration to you, that passage that you always remember that you quote, you know, when things are tough. Even if you can't remember exactly how it goes, that's all right. Let us know. You can give us a call at 1-888-GAY-4GOD.

BRIAN: And we just love hearing responses. Wasn't that fun hearing Jenny? I love it when we can add another voice into the mix and add some listeners' responses. Call us please, 1-888-GAY-4GOD, 1-888-429-4463.

JUSTIN: We love it. You can still send us a text response at www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio. There's a little text box for sending in your response. So your favorite Bible passage or Bible story; we're going to hear some of those responses on a future show!

BRIAN: Terrific!

JUSTIN: Of course you can always hear our past shows on our website www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio!

BRIAN: You can drop me an E-mail anytime at gcnradio@gaychristian.net and share your comments and questions. I'm glad to see those. Everything that comes in to my E-mail box I do read even if I can't respond to everything. But definitely, send me a note! We do appreciate you listening. That means a lot to us and for this week, I'm Brian.

JUSTIN: And I'm Justin, we'll see you next week!