GCN Radio - September 15, 2006
Transcribed by MyckeyD

To listen to this episode, visit http://www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio

[GCN Intro]

BRIAN: It's good to be with you again, Justin!

JUSTIN: IT'S GOOD TO BE WITH [Laughs] it's good to be with you, too, Brian!

BRIAN: It is, it is. You know, people really don't realize what happens in these few seconds before we start recording. The first thing that people hear is our intro, which is appropriate enough, because that's how the show starts.

JUSTIN: Right. [Starts to sing, mocking the intro music] "Da-de-da-dah-DAAH..." [Changes to low voice] "I acknowledged I was gay, I accepted it..." [Switches to feminine voice] "This is about my son, and he needs his mother..." [Changes to robotic voice] "Loneliness has an answer."

BRIAN: [Chuckles] Wow, wow, you've got that down!

JUSTIN: I've heard it so many times!

BRIAN: You've totally got that--what people don't know, is that when we're recording this, I actually add that. That's the very last thing I do before the show goes on the web; is I add the intro...

JUSTIN: Right.

BRIAN: And the little run-up music. But when we record...

JUSTIN: We don't hear it.

BRIAN: It sounds something like this...

[Starts playing a recording out-take]

JUSTIN: Uno!

BOTH: Dos! Tres! Catorce! [Laughing]

JUSTIN: [Mimicking music to U2's "Vertigo" then laughs]

[Fades off, back to show]

JUSTIN: Oh no! [Laughs] Ohhhhh!

BRIAN: And so, that's why we don't normally air all of that!

JUSTIN: We joke around a lot before the show starts.

BRIAN: You mostly hear a polished, clean, nice sort of show, but...

JUSTIN: You know, I went back and I was listening to some of the old shows the other day, and um, I'd forgotten what the old intro sounded like. Well, it could be, in the early days, we didn't have an intro, it was...

BRIAN: That's true. It was just canned music.

JUSTIN: Different, canned music, exactly.

BRIAN: Yeah, the old intro was...

JUSTIN: The old intro, it was very long.

BRIAN: It was much longer, there were other things.

BRIAN: That's true!

JUSTIN: And then there's this intro, and then, there might be a new intro in the future!

BRIAN: There may be. Well, speaking of silliness and craziness...

JUSTIN: Yes?

BRIAN: A couple of shows ago, we talked about, kind of, those odd sayings on church signs. And I think you brought that up.

JUSTIN: We did! Silly church signs.

BRIAN: And, we had and were very happy that, um, a couple of people have responded with their own photos of church signs. They responded on the Gaychristian.net's message board. Even though we didn't specifically ask for it, I was very excited to look and see that a number of people had posted some signs. And I haven't really sorted through these, but I'll just kind of read a few of these.

JUSTIN: Okay, I have not seen these yet. So this is going to be new for me.

BRIAN: Okay. These are actual photos of actual signs.

JUSTIN: Okay.

BRIAN: You'll see. "When Jesus went to heaven, He left the front door open."

JUSTIN: Oh, yeah. Hmmm.

BRIAN: Then the next one, a lot of these are Baptist churches, by the way, just not that...

JUSTIN: I'm from a Baptist background, so, my church does not have a sign.

BRIAN: Okay, I am saying nothing disparaging about Baptists.

JUSTIN: My church did not have a sign like that, though.

BRIAN: "God never goes on vacation from you" [snickers]

JUSTIN: [Laughs]

BRIAN: Uh, Westside Church of Christ: "Satan subtracts and divides, God adds and multiplies"

JUSTIN: Oh, yes, because people love math so much people bringing it into theology just really gets people excited.

BRIAN: It just really, really makes me want to go to church, you know? Let's see, a couple more of these, I'm just kind of looking..."Faith Lifts Available Inside"

JUSTIN: Faith lifts, instead of face-lifts?

BRIAN: Faith, instead of face-lifts, I guess it's FAITH lifts.

JUSTIN: Faith lifts, face-lifts, whatever, whatever.

BRIAN: Okay, let me see, there were a couple more of these, "Seven days without prayer makes one weak"

JUSTIN: Ah yes, one weak, one week.

BRIAN: Let's see if I can find this...Oh God! [Gasps]

JUSTIN: Uh oh.

BRIAN: Oh! [Gasps] "The best vitamin for a Christian is B1" [snickers]

JUSTIN: Be one, right. Okay.

BRIAN: And finally, the last one, I promise, the last one: "The church is a gift, assembly is required"

JUSTIN: Oh. My.

[Tah-Dah music plays]

JUSTIN: Yeah.

BRIAN: So, there you go.

JUSTIN: All right. People, let's stop the insanity. We Christians need to be a little cooler than that, please. Could we? I wonder if our listeners have any ideas for what church signs should say? I'm even scared to ask that. I'm not even going to make that a question of the week.

BRIAN: I think people have to be actual members of GCN to get to this particular section of the website, but after several of these signs were posted there was actually a "Church Sign Generator."

JUSTIN: I've seen this online.

BRIAN: So the other thing, we probably shouldn't read on the air here, are actually self-generated signs. I'm sure you can Google: "Church Sign Generator" I'm sure there's something.

JUSTIN: Uh, yeah, this is going to be an interesting show. Because--um

BRIAN: It already is.

JUSTIN: This show is like Sesame Street; it's brought to you by the letter S.

BRIAN: S?

JUSTIN: This show today is about Signs.

BRIAN: Which we've talked about.

JUSTIN: Which we've just finished talking about, and hopefully forever. I don't think we ever need to revisit church signs again. [Chuckles]

BRIAN: [Laughing]

JUSTIN: Signs...Science...because, you know, because math hasn't excited people enough now, we're going to bring in science...

BRIAN: Yeah. We're going to REALLY dive into that!

JUSTIN: ...and Sex, because we've got to get our audience back somehow! [Laughs]

BRIAN: [Laughs] Yeah, that's right.

JUSTIN: Signs, Science and Sex today on GCN Radio. And we're done with the signs. That's enough! But, coming up in just a moment we've got Science. And then later in the show, something about Sex!

BRIAN: Oh my! Oh my, on a Christian show. Wow, Okay!

JUSTIN: You say, what it is about sex? Brian doesn't even know, yet.

BRIAN: I don't.

JUSTIN: So STAY TUNED for SEX on GCN Radio! Of course, you realize GCN Radio is a family show so it won't be too...

BRIAN: Of course this will be the most popular download of our entire series!

JUSTIN: No, it's just something brief that I'm going to discuss later on. But, obviously, we're a family show so it's not going to be anything salacious or inappropriate. So...

BRIAN: Right. We're talking about science.

JUSTIN: You know, I do a lot of speaking to college groups and church groups and so on about homosexuality and Christianity. And, whenever I do, people always have questions about the science of things: "Has science proven what causes us to be gay?" "What about this study that I've read about in the newspaper?" "What have we proven, what have we not proven?" "Can people change?" And, all this kind stuff, what does the science have to say? And it's more than we can we deal with in one show. But I thought we might, sort of, just "take a crack" at dealing with this issue a little bit today and then maybe talk more about it on another show in the future.

BRIAN: Sure.

JUSTIN: So I thought we'd talk about science. So our guest this week is a guy who is personal friend of mine, his name is Jeramy Townsley. He is such an academic. Like, this guy has written SO many papers, it will just boggle your mind.

BRIAN: And he's got them all organized by category...

JUSTIN: ...on his website.

BRIAN: Every topic that you've ever wanted to know about, I mean, he has written a paper on it!

JUSTIN: He has! He has written a lot of papers. He's a very bright guy. And he's not afraid to take a position that's sort of contrary to popular opinion, so he's an interesting guy to talk to and he knows a lot about science. He's written a lot about the science in the past, and so I thought we might have him on the show this week.

BRIAN: Cool!

JUSTIN: So, Jeramy Townsley, welcome to GCN Radio!

BRIAN and JUSTIN: What's Up? [Laughs]

JERAMY: Hey!

JUSTIN: Hey. Sorry, I usually just jump right in there with the guest. I'm like, "Hey what's up?" And, they're kind of like, "Oh..."

JERAMY: I actually never know what to say when someone asks me that.

JUSTIN: Yeah, I don't know.

BRIAN: What's up? Yeah, this guy.

JUSTIN: Exactly.

BRIAN: Maybe we can talk about it on the whole show. "What IS up?"

JERAMY: [Laughs]

BRIAN: We can answer the lifelong question, "What's up?"

JUSTIN: It's a very philosophical question.

BRIAN: It's good to have you joining us today, Jeramy. Thank you for being on the show.

JERAMY: Thanks for having me on.

JUSTIN: So one of the reasons I asked you to come join us on the show today, is to talk about some of the science about sexual orientation. Because we hear a lot of science thrown about. I mean, I imagine a lot of our listeners have heard stories in the media at one point or another about "the search for a gay gene" and all this kind of stuff. And then we hear also things from the Christian community often about the "real" cause of sexual orientation. You know? Folks like Focus on the Family like to say people are gay because they've had a distant father and an overbearing mother. And that's it, it's settled, "We've discovered the cause!"

JERAMY: Right.

JUSTIN: And maybe some of the listeners go, "Wow, well I did have a distant father and I do have an overbearing mother, maybe they're right. Maybe that's why I'm gay." Why don't we start there?

JERAMY: Okay.

JUSTIN: From a scientific perspective, how would you respond to someone who's like, "Well, you know James Dobson said the cause of being gay is a distant father and an overbearing mother and I do have those things, and I'm gay, maybe he's right."

JERAMY: Well, there are four types of discourse that seem to be laying claims to "we have the perspective on what causes homosexuality." And one of them is not what you've asked me about but you have discussed previously, like on other shows, is the "theological discourse." So framing homosexuality as "sin" versus "sacred" sexuality, you know, however.

From the science perspective, you have several discourses. You have the psychological discourse. What you just referred to is more the Freudian, Psychoanalytical discourse, groups like NARTH (National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality) have definitely absorbed that psychoanalytical perspective and have "Christianized" that psychological perspective for their purposes. Which, of course, for anyone who has read Sigmund Freud, knows that he was an affirmed atheist, at least an agnostic. Certainly, I don't think he would have ever appreciated his psychology being Christianized. But, "The-distant-father-the-overbearing-mother," that's very firmly entrenched in the psychoanalytical discourse. Which, the American Psychoanalytic Association has rejected that position. A third discourse would be the sociological discourse, which is where I am currently rooting myself. I am pursuing a doctorate in sociology, or social theory. Think about almost any kind of, any sexual behavior in terms as socialization. So, what our culture says is masculine or feminine and how we personally identify with that "collective definition" of masculinity or femininity, so there's that interaction, it's really an individual connected to society.

And then the fourth discourse, which is what I think you're asking about, is the biological-medical discourse. Which is the "gay gene", or the "gay increasing environment in-utero." Actually in Bridges-Across, there was a link just yesterday to a news report. I don't know which news site it was, but they interviewed Bailey, one of the primary geneticists who advocates a gay gene, and they talked about the "Brother Syndrome." So: the more older brothers you have, the more likely it is you will be gay. The theory behind that is that there are androgens that build up in-utero, and so because of anti-bodies that are established by the mother, by having this male within her womb that changes the subsequent pregnancy's hormonal environment.

JUSTIN: Well, okay, so, a ton of information here, and obviously there is a lot more complexity to the issue than we really have time to get into in the show.

BRIAN: It sounds like he's studied this a little bit, Justin.

JUSTIN: [Laughs]

BRIAN: He's thought about this ahead of time.

JUSTIN: So getting back to, say, we've got somebody listening to the show right now, a teenager, who, I mean, has not done any research on this, and might feel a little lost with all the discussion of these various discourses on the meaning of sexual orientation and where does it all fit, you know, sociologically, biologically, and theologically, and all this stuff. Sometimes this idea that it's "something that you did" or "it's something that your parents did," is very appealing, because it's very simple. To say, "you're gay because you didn't relate to your father." If you didn't relate to your father, it's a very simple explanation, it's very appealing and that's a lot easier for people to understand sometimes than all of this discussion about androgens and brothers...

JERAMY: [Chuckles]

JUSTIN: Especially because when we look at a study like the brother study, which is a fairly recent study that's been put out there about this "older-brother-effect..."

JERAMY: Right.

JUSTIN: We're talking about a statistical correlation about older brothers. It doesn't mean that all gay men have older brothers, so I mean, I don't have an older brother.

JERAMY: Nor do I.

JUSTIN: So if you can, in very kind of simple laymen's terms, if you're talking to a teenager who says, "I don't have an older brother but I did have a distant father," where's the flaw in reasoning that, you know, "I had a distant father, therefore, that must be the reason that I'm gay." You see what I'm getting at?

JERAMY: Yeah. The flaw that I would see is that perspective has been rejected by professional licensing organizations that use that discourse. So, meaning the American Psychoanalytical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the American Psychological Association have all rejected the idea that our parents have made us gay.

JUSTIN: This is something that was believed in the scientific community at one time. This is something that scientists back in the Sixties and so on, you know, used to believe, that your parents, based on a Freudian model, which is, by the way, it is sort of ironic that Christians today would be using a Freudian model to explain homosexuality.

JERAMY: Yeah. [Laughs]

JUSTIN: Most Christians would want nothing to do with Freud in any other context.

JERAMY: Right.

JUSTIN: But this Freudian model had a lot of influence in the sixties and was something that at one time scientist thought could be the cause. But the research since then simply hasn't supported that.

JERAMY: Right.

BRIAN: So let me ask, I don't know if maybe there is a pat answer to all of this. But given all the research that you've been involved with, are we BORN gay or is it really some other factor?

JERAMY: To get an easy, quick answer, I'm definitely not the person to ask. I would say, "no," that this is a prediction that is worth absolutely worth nothing, we will never find a gene, that if you have it, you will be gay. I doubt very seriously that we will find three or four genes that work together, that, if you have all of them, that you will be gay. I certainly would predict that if we find a cluster of genes, they will increase the likelihood that a person would a develop same-sex attraction. More likely, it would be more along the lines of an opposite-gender brain development.

BRIAN: You know, in sorting out this quagmire of a situation of answering this question, "how do we become same-sex attracted?" what's the next step that we have to go in science to help us more clearly define the answer to that question?

JERAMY: Yeah, you know, I think where there is consensus, that doesn't mean unilateral consensus, but among, I think, the dominant voices, I think though within the endocrinological literature and the neurobiological literature, I don't think you can ask any neurobiologist or endocrinologist, "Is there a biological factor to homosexuality?" I think every one of them will say, "absolutely!" I think there's consensus to that point. Now would they say it CAUSES homosexuality I would probably get "no" because our understanding of what sexuality is, is so complex. So I think on one hand there is consensus, there is a biological factor. You have both genetics, which is the first step, then you have the hormonal environment is the second step. I think there is consensus on that. The third place where I think there is consensus is the agreement that gender and sexuality are so complex within humans, that nothing biological ever determines anything. It simply makes it more likely or less likely, and that's where the socialization comes in. So then, to go back to the question you just asked, Brian, which is "What do we need to do?" I think the geneticists will continue to try to isolate the cluster of genes that are most common with gays, endocrinologists will look for these patterns of hormones, and then, the third factor the psychologists and sociologists will continue to see what kind of environment, whether it's culture, whether it's family, whether it's personal traits that interact WITH this stuff that the geneticists and the endocrinologists have eventually come up with.

JUSTIN: But it sounds like the big answer, right know, to the question of "WHY is somebody gay?" is, still, "we don't know for sure."

JERAMY: Absolutely.

BRIAN: Right.

JUSTIN: Again, it's something that neither side really wants to hear. Everybody really wants--every body really wants a pat answer. But, it's good for us to know that, because we don't want to misrepresent our side any more than we want any one else to misrepresent their side, and I think being honest about the fact that this is a complicated issue is important.

JERAMY: Right

BRIAN: It's part of the mystery of life; it's what makes God, God.

JUSTIN: And what's surprising about that anyway? I mean sexuality is a mystery. Why are geneticists getting a little bit into some of the socialization stuff that Jeramy has talked about elsewhere? But, why are we attracted to the things that we are? Why are we attract why do we look at a person and regardless of the gender we are attracted to, why do we look at a person and find certain parts of them attractive or certain things about them attractive? Why do we have those feelings, anyway? I mean, you know, it gets... [Laughs]

BRIAN: Yeah.

JERAMY: But because it's certainly not a neuron, a gene that makes a neuron that makes something attractive, that's all socialization.

JUSTIN: Hmmm. And cultural standards of beauty vary widely.

JERAMY: Right.

BRIAN: Yes.

JERAMY: Yeah.

BRIAN: Yeah. Jeramy, this has been very interesting.

JERAMY: [Chuckles]

BRIAN: In the beginning, when I first started this show, I thought the Biblical side of this discussion of homosexuality was complicated. I had no idea how complicated the biological/sociological discussion would be. It's quite an area. I'm glad there are people like you that have given so much of their life to helping to further our study of these issues. So, thanks for sharing your insights with us on the show today.

JUSTIN: We appreciate it. And, again, those who are interested in really getting in-depth with this stuff, much, much more than we were able to do on this show and hearing Jeramy's own views and ideas about the issue, feel free to visit his website which is W-W-W dot J-E-R-A-M-Y-T, as in T [Laughs] dot org. T, as in Townsley. [[url=http://www.jeramyt.org]www.jeramyt.org[/url] ]

BRIAN: And there's some neat stuff up on there, too: Some movie reviews, a lot of stuff on Christianity, and even a picture of you surfing.

JERAMY: [Laughs] Yeah. My one surfing experience that was wretched.

JUSTIN: [Laughs]

BRIAN: And you don't like water.

JERAMY: I don't like water. And this surfing experience solidified that. It happened, it was my last day in California and I was going home, and I'm like, "If I was going to surf, it's going to be, it's got to be today. So it happened to be the week or two that they had red tide; so I ended up getting sick, uh, it was terrible!

BRIAN: Was that a "biological" sickness or...

JERAMY: [Laughs]

JUSTIN: [Laughs]

BRIAN: Oh, no, I'm sorry. I'm sorry...Jeramy, wonderful to have you on the show. Good luck to you in your academic pursuits and everything else in life.

JERAMY: Thank you.

BRIAN: What an interesting guy! Jeramy Townsley. I mean, I know I have struggled a lot with really wondering, "What makes me gay?" Because there's still days where I think, gosh I wish I could be normal. What has made me this way? Am I born gay? Or am I somehow affected by it? Now, of course, I didn't have a distant father, my father was very much present in my life growing up. Now my mother was a little overbearing [chuckles], but I don't think that has anything to do with it.

JUSTIN: Well, no. And that's exactly the thing, and that's just part of the point I was trying to make earlier. It's going to happen, that if somebody says, "well being gay is caused by having a distant father," it's going to happen that there are going to be gay people with distant fathers. Because you know what? There are a lot of people in America with distant fathers, gay and straight.

BRIAN: Right.

JUSTIN: But I think part of what Jeramy was getting at and part of what I was getting at, is that, the studies have not shown that's more common among gay people. There are gay people with distant fathers. There are straight people with distant fathers. There are gay people who are close to their fathers; there are straight people who are close to their fathers. There's no evidence to suggest that it's more common among gay people, or that that is the cause of anything.

BRIAN: And then, it should be said that we really don't know.

JUSTIN: You know, It's one of those things, it's kind of like, if you buy a certain brand of car and it breaks down and you have a friend that bought the same brand of car and theirs breaks down, you begin to assume, "Oh well, it's this car, it's this brand of car is a bad brand." And it might just be coincidence, because there are cars of every brand that breakdown, you know? And the only way to know for sure whether one is more likely than another to break down, is to look at statistics overall. What do the surveys show, you know? What do the surveys show about the numbers of Fords that breakdown versus the number of Toyotas that breakdown? You know what I'm saying?

BRIAN: Right. And, thing too, that I just thought of, no matter what your position is, you can find enough evidence to back your point up, if you really want to believe that homosexuality has deeply rooted biological causes, then you could probably find enough evidence to back it up. By the same token environmental factors people who believe that they can for sure find enough evidence to back it up. But the truth is no one, you know, there is not one answer.

JUSTIN: You know when Jeramy pointed out that pretty much the whole of the scientific community acknowledges there's something biological going on, whether or not it accounts for everything, there's something biological going on, because we've seen that in study after study after study we've seen biological evidence of something biological. But we don't know what that means yet. And so it's, it's not that we don't know anything, it's just that we don't know enough to say, "This is how it happens. This is exactly why you're gay. " We don't know. And anybody who tells you that on either side, they're reading the evidence the way they want to.

BRIAN: Right.

JUSTIN: They're seeing what they want to see and, you know I don't think wrong with saying "I believe that I'm gay because..." That's fine. But don't say, "I KNOW that this is why people are gay..." because we don't.

BRIAN: Precisely

JUSTIN: We have to keep studying it and keep learning. And I would like to revisit this because we really didn't get to talk a lot about a lot of the specific studies with Jeramy, so... but, we may be able to have another guest on and talk about the specific studies I think it would be really interesting.

BRIAN: I guess we're not going to solve this one very quickly.

NO, we're not! I've studied a lot of the science. it's very interesting to me. So, I'm curious to hear from our guests whether--our guests? --Excuse me, I'm curious to hear from our LISTENERS whether that's something they would be interested in hearing some more about as well.

BRIAN: Yes, totally.

JUSTIN: So speaking of our listeners...

BRIAN: Yes. So we're coming to the third S of the show.

JUSTIN: Yes. This is the SEX part of the show.

BRIAN: Eahhh! [Sarcastic scream]

JUSTIN: Yeah. Don't be scared! But what I want to talk about today is...

BRIAN: We're trying to get those web hits to go up a little bit.

JUSTIN: Right. What I wanted to talk about today is, is the gay community obsessed with sex? Specifically, here's what I mean: before we recorded the show earlier today, I was looking through some gay magazines, and I noticed, as I have noticed in the past, that almost every one of these gay magazines had a shirtless, or mostly nude attractive guy on the cover. And there are a lot of shirtless men throughout the ads of these magazines. It's part of the idea that "sex sells." I mean, and we see that in magazines, you know, that cater to all different groups in our society, sex sells. We see attractive men and attractive women, scantily clad, promoting products.

BRIAN: Right. I think of Calvin Klein, I mean.

JUSTIN: Sure

BRIAN: It's such uh, I mean, really, they were one of the first to really go to the edge with that.

JUSTIN: Sure and it's every thing from a nude pregnant celebrity of some magazine you pick up in the supermarket, to you know a Calvin Klein ad, or models in a clothing store, whatever. It's not limited to the gay community.

BRIAN: Right.

JUSTIN: But I wonder whether, and I would like our listeners to chime in on this. Because I want to talk about this in-depth on a future show so I would like to get some listener feed back so we could incorporate that into our discussion. But I want to know listeners, do you think our gay community, the gay media in particular, is more obsessed with sex, do gay magazines and gay TV show and gay other things, deal with sex and have sexual imagery MORE than the rest of society? Or is it something that just exists throughout society? And, part of what made me think about that is, that a well-known gay news magazine, which most of us have probably read or seen at some time, every summer, I don't know how long they've been doing this, but I know they did this last summer and did this summer, they have a "Summer Sex" issue. Now this is a news magazine. This is sort of the gay equivalent of Newsweek, this is sort of the Gay Newsweek, you know? Why do they have a "Summer Sex Issue?" Would Time or Newsweek or another, you know, mainstream news magazine have a "Summer Sex Issue?"

BRIAN: Yeah, good point, yeah.

Why does this magazine have a summer sex issue? So I was just thinking about that and thinking about other things. And so I'm really curious to know what our listeners think. This is a multipart question: 1. Is the gay community and the gay media community in particular obsessed with sex more so than the rest of the culture? Do you think it's justified, the focus on sex? Do you think it's justified because it's the same that exists everywhere, or because you think that as gay people there's a reason we ought to be, more talk about sex more because we are gay. And, also, I, in this case I want to hear from the WOMEN, are we focusing once more on male sexuality? Because we know that we know that in sort of the mainstream culture, there's a focus on heterosexual male sexuality.

BRIAN: Right, yes.

JUSTIN: We see a lot of scantily clad women being used to sell things to straight men. I noticed as I'm flipping through these gay magazines, which supposedly are for gay men and lesbians, that, for instance, the summer sex issue of this particular magazine had a lot of scantily clad males in it, very few females. All of that is part of this thing. So what do you think about the way the gay community handles sex?

BRIAN: And we hope that you will weigh in with your response at 1-888-GAY-4GOD. And for those of you like me, who struggle with that number, that's 1-888-429-4463! [Laughs]

JUSTIN: [Laughs] Brian and I had a discussion today about that.

BRIAN: Ooohh!

JUSTIN: It's difficult maybe for some people to follow the numbers.

BRIAN: Well, I, uh...Truth be told, I couldn't do the numeric translation fast enough, and so I just, anyway...so yeah, anyway, 1-888-GAY-4GOD, 1-888-429-4463. We hope that you will call in if you're in the US or Canada and weigh in with that. But I'm also very curious to hear from our friends and listeners overseas. Because, as you were explaining that question of the week, it made me think, "How much of this is driven by, specifically, American gay culture?"

JUSTIN: Well, and it's also true that the perspective on sex in America tends to be different from, say, in many European countries, where sex in ads and so on is treated a bit differently.

BRIAN: Right.

JUSTIN: So, yeah, that's a good point. We'd love to hear from our overseas listeners. And those of you who aren't in the US or Canada or otherwise aren't able to call us you can certainly submit your text response by going to www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio there's a text box where you can put in your response, just make sure you do it here in the next week or so, so that we can have that in time for a future show.

BRIAN: Yes.

JUSTIN: But we really, really want to hear from you. And you know what? If you want to rant on this question, if you just, if it really gets you going and you have a lot you want to say about this, feel free! You can call us and you can rant for a while.

BRIAN: Sound off, yes.

JUSTIN: Type as much as you want into that text box. We really, really want to hear from you.

BRIAN: This is an interactive show. You make it all possible. Please do respond.
So we've covered the three "S's" today.

JUSTIN: We did!

BRIAN and JUSTIN: Signs, Science and Sex! [Laughs]

JUSTIN: They have nothing in common.

BRIAN: But terrific, terrific. Any parting thoughts?

JUSTIN: I don't have any parting thoughts, other than, our last few shows, some our listener responses have been down. So, I really, really want to encourage our listeners who, because I know we have a lot of listeners out there who don't respond, we hear from some of the same folks every week. We'd really like to hear--we want to hear from you guys as well--but we'd like to hear from our listeners we don't hear from as often, so if you've never responded or if you've only done it once or twice, please, go ahead and send us in a response on the show, because, come on, every body has got an opinion about sex!

BRIAN: Yes! Okay.

JUSTIN: All right.

BRIAN: Well, I think that does it for this week. We've covered a tremendous amount of ground. And we look forward to seeing you next time. So for this week, I'm Brian.

JUSTIN: And I'm Justin, and if you see one of those churches with a silly sign, please, give them something better to put on the sign. Because, I just don't want to read the silly ones!

BRIAN: [Laughs] Okay, Bye, bye!

JUSTIN: Have a great week! Bye!