GCN Radio - September 29, 2004
Transcribed by Vombatus

To listen to this episode, visit http://www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio

BRIAN: This is Brian…

JUSTIN: …and this is Justin, welcome to another edition of [together] GCN Radio.

[intro theme]

JUSTIN: How are you doing this week, Brian?

BRIAN: I’m good. It’s a busy time at work; I’m fully recovered, just in time for public radio fundraising, which is everyone’s favorite time. It’s a good thing, things are good right now. I’m still decorating my house. I got a new welcome mat this week with a little design of a music keyboard on it, so I’m starting my music motif in my house. So that’s kind of fun.

JUSTIN: Well that’s cool. Okay, I have to bring up something from last week because I just had a conversation with someone who was listening to the show earlier and said to me, “I didn’t know Brian had a daughter!” And I was like, “He doesn’t!”

BRIAN: No, I don’t think I do…

JUSTIN: I said, “What made you think he had a daughter?” and he said, “You said, on the show, ‘Brian, how’s your daughter doing?’” So I kind of mentally went back and was like, no, I asked him how his donor was doing. [laughter] His kidney donor.

BRIAN: Donor! Oh my goodness!

JUSTIN: So, if anyone out there is listening, Brian did not have daughter.

BRIAN: No, I certainly didn’t. I’m certain that I did not have a daughter. Promise!

JUSTIN: Well it’s been kind of a crazy week over here, too, I’ve got to tell you, because I spent several days on letters. Printing and folding and sorting and sealing and stamping and mailing. Because we’re sending out letters to churches as part of this database we’re building, and I was trying to do the little trick with the sponge and water to dampen the flap of the envelopes, and it wasn’t working. I was always either getting too much water, or not enough, so finally I just resorted to licking them all. And you know what? You get really tired of envelope glue after a couple of hundred, so…

BRIAN: Do you get like, ‘tongue burn’ or something?

JUSTIN: Yeah, I was afraid of getting a paper cut on my tongue.

BRIAN: Ugh… I’ve heard of people having those, those are nasty!

JUSTIN: But thankfully that didn’t happen.

BRIAN: Good, good.

JUSTIN: Well, I’m pleased to introduce our guest for this week. One of the things we’ve got going at GCN is a series of small groups. They deal with different segments of the community, really, dealing with different special interests, and one of the small groups that we have is one for Side B and celibate folks. And the leader of that small group is Matt and he’s joining us today from… are you up in New York, Matt?

MATT: Yep, Rochester, New York.

JUSTIN: I knew that is where you had been, but didn’t remember if that’s where you still were. So welcome to the show!

MATT: Thanks!

BRIAN: Matt, I want to ask to open up, and by way of clarification, for those who may not have spent a lot of time on the message boards or may not be familiar with some of the terminology that we’re going to be using on the show today: Side A and Side B. Why don’t we just open by talking about what those terms mean.

MATT: Sure, I don’t think it is just people that are new to the message boards that are confused by this, it can be a really confusing system, so thanks for the chance to explain. I guess I’ll define Side B and maybe hand it over to Justin for Side A. I guess the most concise way I can put it is that being Side B entails believing that same-sex relationships, romantic relationships, whatever, are outside the will of God and so not what we’re looking for.

JUSTIN: And the origin of the terminology is an organization that was founded a number of years ago to try and find sort of a safe space in the midst of the culture war about homosexuality called Bridges Across the Divide. And they invented these terms, Side A and Side B, to talk about what they saw as the two sides of the homosexuality debate. So like Matt said, Side B are those folks who believe that sexual relations should be confined to a heterosexual marriage relationship and Side A are those folks that believe that there is some place for sexual relationships between people of the same sex. Now, there’s a lot of variety within that position. I mean, some Side A people would say, “Yes, gay people can have sex but only in a marriage.” You know, it would be a same-sex marriage. And then there are others who might have a broader understanding of when that would be acceptable. And those are all Side A positions.

BRIAN: So, Matt, you define your self as Side B. When and why did you make the decision to be celibate, that’s part one of the question, and then, if I may ask, how do you then define celibacy?

MATT: Even the whole reason why I use the term celibate is kind of a gradual outgrowth of sort of the way I was brought up, believing that sexual relationships were to be reserved for marriage, and since I didn’t want to marry a woman, that was sort of my starting point, was, “Hmm… well, I guess I’ll just be abstinent.” As I was talking to more people, I think it was Ron who sort of introduced the word celibacy to talk about what I had always just sort of thought of as abstinence. Abstinence with no end-point in sight, and not in any hurry for there to be one. I don’t mean that I’m just going to abstain from sexual relations, but I’m still going to pursue a relationship in every other regard. For me its sort of the only sort of person who’s going to make me complete is Christ himself. Beyond that: friendships—love them! Family—of course! But sort of the unique, special relationship—the romance of the heart, if you will—belongs to Christ.

JUSTIN: So let’s back up here for a second, because this show, obviously, and the small group that you’re running is all sponsored by a gay Christian organization. And there are a lot of people who would listen to what you’re saying and maybe the first understanding of what you’re saying may be “Oh well, he’s just decided not to pursue a relationship at this point in his life.” But you’re actually saying more than that, right, in terms of your beliefs?

MATT: Right. When I finally realized that ‘Oh my gosh, I’m gay’, searching through scripture, praying, talking to people eventually, trying to figure out how this all fits together the picture that emerged from the whole of scripture, not just the so-called ‘clobber passages’, was that God’s view of marriage was intrinsically heterosexual and how it pictures the relationship between Christ and humanity. So I could never see a homosexual relationship fitting that image, fitting what that was created for.

JUSTIN: And yet you’re at a gay Christian organization. A lot of people would say, well, why aren’t you in an ex-gay ministry?

MATT: Yeah. Fair question. Because I don’t think that there’s anything wrong or intrinsically sinful about just having a homosexual orientation. It’s just experiencing a particular set of temptations, much as a straight man would experience a parallel set of temptations. Temptation doesn’t become sin until you yield to it; and I don’t think there’s anything sinful just about experiencing temptation, because of course we all know that even Christ himself was tempted in every way just as we. So have no problem identifying myself as gay, provided that I can also make it understood that I am not being sexually active.

BRIAN: You have said that the essence of the heart relationship is reserved for Christ. So I am interpreting that to mean that you are not seeking an earthly romantic relationship.

MATT: Yeah.

BRIAN: Is that difficult for you? Knowing that that’s a lifelong commitment for you?

MATT: At times. And I think it will probably grow to be more difficult over the years. Where I am right now, I’m still surrounded—even though I’ve graduated from college—I’m still surrounded with the college environment and I have friends out the wazoo everywhere and I have unmarried people of my own age. But realistically I know that as I age and more and more of my straight friends marry and my gay friends probably will settle down as well, loneliness might be a much more significant thing that I’ll have to deal with then I do now. But I also know that God’s going to be there, and one of the biggest things I’ve been learning about the Lord through all of this is that he truly is sufficient. The phrase kind of gets thrown around in churches sometimes, but you get to experience the sufficiency of Christ if there’s nobody else.

JUSTIN: Hmm. What kind of reactions have you gotten from other people: from Christians in your life, and from gay people in your life? To a lot of people doesn’t this seem like sitting on the fence?

MATT: Yeah, yeah, one reaction that I’ve gotten, especially from gay people a lot of the time, Christian or not, is sort of a little dumbfounded silence and then “Wow. Good for you” in almost an admiration sense, “but, oh my gosh, I could never do that.” I kind of want to say, “I know, I couldn’t do it either, because it’s not anything that I think I can do on my own strength, but with God all things are possible.” That’s been one reaction. And then from Christians, straight Christians, funda-gelicals, whatever you want to say, I’ve actually been surprised to get mostly support. People have been okay with the idea that I am gay, although I’m not quote-unquote ‘acting on it’.

JUSTIN: I’m curious if you’ve heard this too. The thing that I hear when people find out that we have Side B individuals at GCN is to believe that homosexual behavior is sinful is essentially just internal homophobia.

MATT: I have heard that from other people, but not directed at me, per se. But I don’t think ‘internalized homophobia’ is quite—or it’s not, actually, at all—the proper nomer for how I see myself. I’m very comfortable identifying as gay, it’s part of my everyday life, and part of my identity insofar as it describes me. I wouldn’t say that it defines me, but at the same time it doesn’t mean that I’m internalizing some sort of homophobia.

BRIAN: Do you think those who identify as Side A are wrong in what they believe?

MATT: Well, the bottom line answer to that is actually going to be ‘yes’. Just because my convictions are based on my understanding of the character of God and that’s not one of those things that I can see changing from person to person, where you do what feels right to you and I’ll do what feels right to me. It really is to me one of these more overarching truths.

JUSTIN: So Matt, I have so much respect for you, but people who know me pretty much know my position. I’m Side A, you're Side B; we have a major disagreement. You think I’m wrong and I think that you’re wrong. I’m glad you can admit that, because anybody who says “It’s okay to believe what you want as long as you don’t think that other people are wrong” doesn’t understand what it is to actually believe something, you know? If I believe something, then I believe that the opposing view is wrong. But one question I get a lot: “Why should organizations like GCN, which is dedicated to providing support to the gay and lesbian Christian community, welcome people who have Side B views?”, as you do.

MATT: Well, first of all, I am so thankful that you do. Why should you? I don’t know if I’ll be able to answer. I can tell you why I am thrilled that you do. First of all, I think we are part of the gay Christian community: we’re part of the gay community and the Christian community. But as invisible as gay Christians are, celibate gay Christians are probably even more invisible. And as I started to meet more and more people, it was kind of like a breath of fresh air to finally feel like, “There is somebody who understands what I’m going through, there is somebody who’s thought these things through more than I have.” To use as sort of a role model, to sit down and bounce ideas off of to come to a deeper understanding of my own beliefs, and what they’re founded on, and what about them needs to change, and what about them can stay. It’s just been a huge blessing to have not just a Side B perspective only, but also people there who I disagree with, because I think my faith has grown, and my understanding of all of these issues, has grown every bit as much by being challenged by people who disagree with me, maybe more so, than it has by the sort of pat-each-other-on-the-back, “oh yes, we all believe the same thing and we’re right.”

BRIAN: I’d like to ask you, since you’ve chosen to abstain from sexual relationships or having a partner, but yet you still identify yourself as gay, and certainly you’re attracted to men… how do you express the ‘gay side’ of Matt?

MATT: [laughs] Well, I don’t know if that’s disconnected from the rest of Matt. Matt loves science and theatre. Matt loves sports and music and cooking. So there’s a whole bunch of outlets for all of me, some of which people might see as more gay, others people might see as more straight. One of the things that used to worry me before I was out was kind of that issue: Oh my gosh, if I play the lead in the school musical four years in a row, are people going to start suspecting? One of the great freedoms, I think, of coming out is that I can express all of who I am without fear, because I don’t have to suppress the parts of Matt that other people are going to label as ‘Gay Matt’. Now that people have a better understanding of who I am overall, it sort of just gives me more freedom just to be.

JUSTIN: I think that’s such a great way of looking at it. To suggest that we might actually integrate our sexuality into the rest of our selves and not just be Gay Matt and Gay Brian and Gay Justin. I am so thankful that you are part of the community, and I am so glad that we have this opportunity to talk to you. Just because, the fact that you’re Side B doesn’t mean that you don’t go through the same things that all of the rest of us go through, in terms of dealing with the closet, and coming out. The same prejudice exists against Side B gay Christians that exist against Side A gay Christians. Because people don’t stop to ask you what your sexual practices are before they become prejudiced against you. And that’s why I think it’s so important that we have folks like you as members of the community and we will continue to welcome Side B gay Christians or those who are just undecided because we can’t demand inclusion in the church and then at the same time exclude people just because we have a difference of opinion. And we’ve got so many differences of opinion in the group: we’ve got Catholic and Protestant and Side A and Side B and even gay and straight people in the group. To me, it’s such a blessing… You have been such a blessing to me, and to me this is the key: even though we disagree on a lot of issues, you have always been so kind and respectful to me. So you earn my respect and I really appreciate that about you.

MATT: Well thank you. Thanks for deserving it. You guys are great, and this whole ministry has been such an awesome part of my life.

BRIAN: We are nearing the end of our time today, but as we close, I’d like to ask you, Matt: How do we take what you and Justin have achieved in your friendship and what you have achieved by making inroads at GCN and being able to be friends with everyone—how do we take this to the wider world, to the church?

MATT: I think the first step for everybody is to remember how much we’ve been forgiven by Christ. Just to think about the enormity of the debt that’s been erased there, and if God can love us with all of the crap that we’ve done to Him, all of the times that we’ve spit in His face, basically… if He can love us, how can we not love each other when our differences of opinion are so miniscule in comparison. How can we not reach out with His love to others?

JUSTIN: Absolutely. Well, for those who are interested in learning more about Side B or who sort of are on the fence there trying to figure out what they believe about the whole sex or relationship issue, or who know that they want to be celibate—and we’re talking about lifelong celibacy, here, not just ‘in-between-boyfriends’!—they can come to the chat, the small group that you guys have got going on. That’s at…

MATT: First and third Tuesdays, 9:30 p.m. Eastern Standard. Way cool new web chat.

JUSTIN: Yes, the new web chat room. And you can find out more about that and the other small groups we have by going to the Features section at GCN and clicking the chat room link. There’s all kinds of information there and a link directly to the chat room.

BRIAN: Matt, thank you so much for being on GCN Radio today, it was a real pleasure.

MATT: Thank you guys, God bless you.

BRIAN: And of course you can listen anytime to GCN Radio by logging on to http://www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio and please send along your feedback to gcnradio@gaychristian.net. So for this time, I’m Brian…

JUSTIN: … and I’m Justin. God Bless!

BRIAN: Talk to you later.