GCN Radio - November 10, 2006
Transcribed by MyckeyD

To listen to this episode, visit http://www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio

BRIAN: It's good to be with you again! And Justin, I understand you've kept busy as you always do.

JUSTIN: As I always do!

BRIAN: As you always do. And you were telling just before we went on, that you attended a little GCN Gathering.

JUSTIN: Yeah, yeah. This past weekend I had a chance to meet some of the GCN gang out in, um, hmm, where were we? Oakland, I think, out in Oakland, California.

BRIAN: Oh wow, long trip for you!

JUSTIN: Yeah. I don't know my California geography at all. You know, the Californians are very--they know their geography. People will always ask me if I've been some place.

BRIAN: Yeah. "It's right over there, man!" [Chuckles]

JUSTIN: You know, "how far were you from such and such a place?" I don't know. I've gotten northern and southern California confused before, which I guess provides a lot of amusement to Californians, you know? [Laughs]

BRIAN: [Chuckles] Depends on what part of California you're from, "Hey man, it's kind of over there."

JUSTIN: [Laughs] Yeah, I don't know. I really need to learn my California geography better. But we were in Oakland and it was fun. I got to see some of the GCN gang; we hung out.

BRIAN: Great!

JUSTIN: There were, I don't know, there were twenty or, twenty or so people.

BRIAN: Oh my, that was a significant crowd there!

JUSTIN: Yeah. I was out there because I was doing some work on something preparation for our January conference. So, I can't say what it is. It's a big secret. But, it's going to be a lot of fun!

BRIAN: I can't wait. I am really looking forward to it!

JUSTIN: It's going to be a fun time.

BRIAN: Kind of bouncing around topic to topic here. A little news item this week: We've seen a couple different celebrities "come out." The guy, whose name is escaping me right now, from Grey's Anatomy,

JUSTIN: Um-hmm.

BRIAN: One of the main characters has come out. And of course, one of MY [Chuckles] teenage crushes, Neil Patrick Harris, is, uh, confirmed "family" now. So...

JUSTIN: Neil Patrick Harris, who, will forever be known as "Doogie Howser," he can't seem to get away from. [Laughs]

BRIAN: Cannot.

JUSTIN: Yeah, and I have to say, I already knew about Neil Patrick Harris.

BRIAN: Oh?

JUSTIN: I wasn't surprised. A lot of people are "Oh wow, Neil Patrick Harris is gay!" I was like, [Sarcastically] "Yeah." For one thing, I have friends who work in the industry, and um, I guess it's not really a big secret. It really hasn't been.

BRIAN: [Laughs]

JUSTIN: For another thing, if you every really look at some of the work that he's done, I mean, I'm not saying that actors who play gay are gay, because clearly there are a lot of straight actors who play gay characters, but when someone plays...

BRIAN: You have some affinity to the role! [Laughs]

JUSTIN: Yeah, when you find that an actor seems to constantly be playing gay roles, you know, or gay-friendly roles, it does make you wonder, especially when its, you know a single actor, with rumors swirling about him, [Laughs] and then he goes and plays The Emcee in Cabaret, which for those who aren't familiar with the stage production Cabaret, The Emcee is a very, shall we say, "sexually ambiguous" character.

BRIAN: Cabaret was at the University where I work, last year, and, yes!

JUSTIN: So, it was not a surprise to me. But, it's interesting that we are seeing more and more actors coming out of the closet.

BRIAN: And I think that's a bold thing to do first of all, very, very courageous. That is not always easy in the industry and certainly next to impossible in the "Christian industry" as we've talked about many times on this show. But I'm also a big proponent of being one's self of just saying, right out there, "Yeah, this is how I am, let's not make a big deal out of it." In the media, we make, we speculate, we make a big deal about it, we make tabloid journalism out of it. If people are just honest, then that just puts an end to the rumor-machine, the rumor-mill. And it's like okay, "It's no big deal, that's just how I am."

JUSTIN: You know, as more and more of these celebrities and high-profile people are coming out, it really does, I think, have an impact on the culture, that people are realizing that there are gay people EVERYWHERE.

BRIAN: Yes.

JUSTIN: The people that we look up to, the people we look down at, the people that we like, the people that we don't like. It does, I think, help a lot of gay folks in the closet to feel less alone, to know that there are others out there. And ultimately, I think it means that society is going to be more understanding and more accepting, and in fact we've already seen that. Society is already much more understanding and accepting of gay people NOW, than it was several decades ago.

BRIAN: Right.

JUSTIN: Things are changing. Unfortunately, it's still a lot easier for somebody in Hollywood to come out, than, even though they worry about their careers when they do, but it's much easier for somebody in Hollywood to come out than it is for somebody in the church.

BRIAN: Oh, yeah. Yeah. And we've seen a little of that, too, in the news.

JUSTIN: And that situation, and I don't want to, you know, I don't really get into all the politics of that situation. I know that's something that people, kind of, probably expect us to talk about on the show, but I hate the politics of it all. But, it's sad we do see that there are a lot of gay people who in trying to hide their sexuality, have married, and...

BRIAN: ...gone on to live a secret life...

JUSTIN: Yeah.

BRIAN: ...because they feel like that's their only choice.

JUSTIN: And they get found out, eventually. And it's just one more reminder that the "Ex-gay movement" doesn't work! I mean, it just doesn't! And we've talked about that so many times on the show. And I don't want to keep talking about the Ex-gay movement all the time. But just because somebody is married to a member of the opposite sex does not mean they're no longer gay. And it's really sad to see families destroyed when somebody is having an extramarital relationship and all that kind of stuff. I'm not in any way advocating that. You know, I do feel like sometimes there are people who end up getting married who shouldn't have. So, at least it's nice to see with the celebrities who are like, "Yeah, you know what, I'm gay, and I've been living as a gay person, and I'm happy being gay!" and, "You just didn't know about it!"

BRIAN: And I want to say again, and this has been mentioned before on the program, that as Christians, we need to learn how to deal with sexuality better, just in general. And to get it right from the beginning, so that people have to go these dark places because they feel like they can't come out. If we could deal with sexuality in a healthy way from the beginning, I don't think a lot of this would be happening. But then that's why we have shows like this, and that's why we have websites like GCN, and to say, "Yeah, okay, God loves you!"

JUSTIN: Exactly.

BRIAN: You know? Even if you are a homosexual, or a bisexual, or a lesbian, or trans-gendered."

JUSTIN: Or think that you might be.

BRIAN: Right.

JUSTIN: Or you know, you're just struggling with your sexuality and trying to figure out who you. I mean there's sometimes all this pressure on people to identify right away, "WHAT ARE YOU?"

BRIAN: Exactly, our society wants to put labels on you. So then we want to label ourselves. "Oh my gosh, I must be bad!" It's like, "No!" You're not BAD, just because you are gay!

JUSTIN: The church has to wake up to, and I think a lot of the Church is, but there's still a lot of the church that has not woken up to the fact that gay people exist and that we didn't chose to be gay, and that it's going to be with us all our lives. Now, again, you can always have discussions about how should you live. You know? Are you going to acknowledge it as a life-long temptation and be celibate, or are you going to look for a partner? How are you going to live as a gay person? THAT is always a reasonable discussion to have. But the church needs to wake up to the fact that THAT'S the discussion that needs to be happening. The discussion is NOT, "Should you be gay or not?" because that's not something you get to chose!

BRIAN: Right, right.

JUSTIN: The question is, "Given that you're gay, now how are you going to live your life?" And it's slowly but surely happening, but there are still some people in high-profile positions in the church who are trying to push the idea that one can simply chose not to be gay, and then, oh the problem goes away. Well, no! It's not a problem, it's just a fact of who we are and it's something that then, you know, we go on and figure out, "How does God wants us to live?"

BRIAN: Well, we'll do our best to put the positive message out there. And maybe some of these people are out there, you know, downloading our programs in the middle of the night, and slowly learning the truth, you know, God's truth about love, and that's why we're here.

JUSTIN: Yeah, you know what? Let's put this out there. This is a long shot. But if we have folks listening to the show, who are Christians, who aren't totally with us on this, you know? If you're a Christian listening to this show and don't agree with what I've just said, but maybe you listen to this show because you're just interested in this perspective.

BRIAN: You want fuel for your argument or something.

JUSTIN: Exactly, sure! [Laughs] Or you're trying to understand where we're coming from, but you don't agree with the whole gay thing. I'd like to hear from you! I would be really interested in hearing from some of these folks, and if you could send us a message, either send us an e-mail at gcnradio@gaychristian.net or send us a message either by phone at our toll-free number 1-888-GAY-4GOD or on the text box on our website, which is the probably easiest way to do it, gaychristian.net/gcnradio, send us a message.

BRIAN: That'd be great! I mean, it would be great to have a civil discussion of the presentation of the points of view.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

BRIAN: And I know, Justin, you've dialogued with people who disagree with us. And it's possible to have a civil discussion without, you know, coming away feeling angry or hurt. But, just being able to present your viewpoint out there, that'd be great! That's something we haven't done yet on this show.

JUSTIN: Exactly.

BRIAN: That would be fabulous to hear what other people are saying.

JUSTIN: Yes. So send us a message, and when you do that, just make sure you give us a way to contact you, by phone or e-mail, and maybe we can, you know, we'll have some discussion, in the future, in the show, because I am interested in that. So...

BRIAN: Well, we have someone on the show today.

JUSTIN: Yeah!

BRIAN: We'll we're going to hear some of her coming-out experiences and just the journey she's taken. I've used that word "journey" a lot on almost every show.

JUSTIN: [Laughs]

BRIAN: If you go back, probably, Brian's like, "What's your journey like in your Christian walk and your homosexuality?" But really the road down which she has traveled, [Chuckles] it's an amazing story.

JUSTIN: [Chuckles] Yes, she and I met, at a gay Christian conference, and we just hit it off and had some really great discussions. I was like; "You just have to come be on GCN Radio with us sometime." You know me. I'm a sucker for good discussions, ha! So on the show today we have Zakiya. Zakiya, how are you doing?

ZAKIYA: I am excellent!

JUSTIN: Awesome!

BRIAN: And where are you right now, in the world, Zakiya?

ZAKIYA: I am in Minnesota, St. Paul, Minnesota, right now.

BRIAN: Okay. Okay.

JUSTIN: Can you give our audience a little taste of who you are, just you know, tell us all a little bit about yourself.

ZAKIYA: Okay. Well, I just graduated from college. And I am starting the work force, doing AmeriCorps for ten months. I have a twin sister, ten brothers and sisters all together.

BRIAN: Did you say TEN?

ZAKIYA: TEN, yes.

BRIAN: Oh my goodness!

JUSTIN: Where are you--

BRIAN: [Gasps] Oh!

JUSTIN: Where are you in the birth order there?

ZAKIYA: I am exactly the middle child. My twin, and me, we're in the middle.

JUSTIN: Wow, the middle out of ten.

ZAKIYA: Yeah.

JUSTIN: When we first met over at the Evangelicals Concerned conference, we were in a workshop listening to someone else who I am hoping to have on the show, on another show. The group kind of got involved in this discussion about what it means to be a minority, and you were talking some about being a "triple minority."

ZAKIYA: Um, hmm. Yeah, I joke a lot about it with my friends, halfway joking, but not really. As a black lesbian, it's, you're kind of a triple minority, and I, you kind of, FEEL it, I suppose. When I came out and started to get homophobia or started to get responses from people in a negative way about being gay, it was really not that hard for me to handle because I'm from the Midwest, which isn't that "friendly" when it comes to race or sexual orientation or anything. And so I feel a lot of, I guess, "extra baggage" that goes on for black lesbians, or just homosexuals of color in general. But it's just, I mean...[Dog barks unexpectedly in the background] like my dog barking? No-- [Laughs]

BRIAN: [Guffaws]

JUSTIN: [Laughs]

ZAKIYA: It's just one of those things that you sort of get used to, unfortunately, and you sort of--um, like when it came to race a long time ago I became numb to the situation that was going on around me. I became numb to being called "nigger" or any other type of racial slurs. Unfortunately, I'm not able to become numb when it comes to homosexuality, all because it's all-new to me. And so, you know being called--I'm not going to say any of those slurs--but being called whatever, it, you know, still stings, and it's...

JUSTIN: I'm--I'm sorry, I--I have to just s-s-stop it for a second. [Stutters in amazement] Did you--have you actually been called...?

ZAKIYA: N****r?

JUSTIN: Yeah, have you actually been called--I don't even like to say it--have you actually been called that?

ZAKIYA: Yes. Yes, I have. When I was growing up I went to Catholic school, preschool through eighth grade. It was only black students in the school. In fact, I think I've never met a white person until high school, like, officially. But when we played the other schools, we played against white schools, and the coaches would call us dogs, and there was once in a while they would call us n****rs. But the time I remember the most was when I was working in one of the suburban areas and an old white man looked at me and was like, "I don't want that n****r touching my food!"

JUSTIN: Oh my, gosh.

BRIAN: [Gasps] Wow!

ZAKIYA: And I was like fourteen then. But, it's been called more times than that, but that was the most distinctive time, where, you know someone looked at me and said it and meant it in that manner. So yes, I have.

JUSTIN: Oh my, gosh. That blows my mind, because, as a white guy, I'm very aware that we still have a huge problem with racism in this country. We have a lot of, a lot of prejudice in a lot of different ways, which, you know, ties into what you're talking about being a minority in so many different areas. But, I always think of the racism in this country today as being much more subtle, and not being that overt. And it amazes me that anybody, even, you know, huh, even somebody who's older would say something like that. I mean, it just--that just blows my mind right there!

BRIAN: Where did you turn for comfort, or solace, when you were going through these things?

ZAKIYA: For a long time I didn't turn to anyone. I kept things inside. I fought a lot. I fought almost any chance I could get, because I didn't grow up with my biological mom. And so, and actually, ironically, I never really realized that was abnormal until I got to seventh grade. But, my grandma lived across the street from my church. So we would go to church, that wasn't really a place of solace for me; it was a place to be away from home. But it was never...God at the time was never a comforting God, He was this evil, you know, hellfire and brimstone god, and the people in the church were supposedly comforting, but they weren't. Because, the source of my pain: they were buddy-buddies with. You know? And so it was really, it took a long time for me to find peace and solace. I started writing poetry when I got to high school, and that's where I was able to find peace and solace at, it was in pen and paper. Actually, almost exactly five years ago, September 2001 is when I became a Christian. It wasn't immediate peace and comfort, but it was, yeah, I don't know, I guess it was the best I got. I was always trying to learn how to make it on my own.

JUSTIN: So not feeling that you were not getting any solace from the church, what was it that led you to become a Christian five years ago?

ZAKIYA: I sort of, I didn't grow up in the church. But I went to Catholic school my whole life and I was the "good kid." And so I always thought that I was Christian, just because of the things I was doing, the way I was living, and every one else said, "Zakiya, you must be a Christian, because you don't smoke, you don't drink, you're not having sex..." [Aside] I wasn't having sex because I didn't like guys, but that's a different story.

BRIAN and JUSTIN: [Laughs]

ZAKIYA: But, so I just always thought I was a Christian. One of my closest friends asked me just like, "Are you saved?" I was like, "Whatever that means, sure." You know, and she was like, "Okay." But after she asked me that, it was on my mind, and it just wouldn't leave me. And then this spring she got married, because she was four years older than me in school, she got married, and we ended up talking, she explained to me, you know, what it means to be a Christian. She explained to me the God of love and all that stuff. I was like, "Wow, if that's who God really is, I want to know that God." It's been awesome and it's been a real RELATIONSHIP, which has been awesome. Because, when the church that, the same church that taught me other things about God, the same church that showed me the love of Christ and that took me in their arms, and that pretty much treated me like one of theirs, when I came out, it was the same church that kicked me out of their church. But it's been GREAT, because, God they introduced me to was a relational God, so I didn't need them.

JUSTIN: Yeah, you know, it's, there are times that I think, I wish that we had a different word for followers of Christ besides "Christian" because, you know like you say the church here at least, here in America, and this is true of other places as well, I just so often feel like it does not represent Christ at all. And I don't want to generalize. There are so many wonderful things about the church today, but, but there are times, that with certain people, you know, when they say and do certain things, and call themselves "Christians," it's frustrating, and I want to say, "Well, if that's what it is to be a Christian, then we need another word!"

BRIAN: [Laughs]

JUSTIN: "Because, that's, that does not." You know? You said it best, and I'm just repeating what you said, but that doesn't represent Christ to me.

ZAKIYA: Um-hmm. Yeah, it doesn't. I don't think we're ever going to "get it" until we're, you know, standing right in front of Christ worshipping Him, when we're in Heaven. You know? It's hard to figure out what it means to be Christian, and all I know is, regardless of what the theological aspects of what Christ is, and the doctrinal stuff about Christ, all I know as that he was the one that was being kicked out of his church, He was the one that was ostracized or marginalized.

JUSTIN: Hmm.

ZAKIYA: And so I believe that. There's a black theologian, James Cone, that says, he has a book called God the Oppressed; I mean redemptive theology is pretty much that "Christ here, for the oppressed, and he's here for all of us also." It's not a black and white thing. All of life is a very gray area, unfortunately.

JUSTIN: That's such a great point though, that for those of us who feel ostracized, who feel in the minority, for whatever reason, and there are so many reasons to feel in the minority, that if you feel ostracized, you feel oppressed, you feel in the minority, that Jesus is--

BRIAN: --identifies with that, lived that life.

JUSTIN: Yeah, exactly, um-hmm.

ZAKIYA: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Yeah, you look at the way Jesus lived as a Jewish man, and the Jewish people, it seems like throughout their history, have always been in the minority and the oppressed ones wherever they go. As a Jewish man who wasn't accepted by his own people in so many ways, even his closest friends betrayed him in the end. Talk about being in the minority and being all-alone, he certainly knew what that was.

ZAKIYA: Yeah. That's the thing, that's what the essence of a lot the old Negro spirituals, all the time it seems as if, especially during slavery, they identified with Israel, with Israelites, with God's children. Just all those great songs that brought people through, it was just all about God delivering His children out of the hand of pharaoh, and God delivering Daniel out of the lion's den, and you know all of those things. And then, making it even more so, Christ went through all of that, and he knows what we all feel like. And it's, just, to me it's mind-boggling! You know?

BRIAN: Zakiya, you have an amazing story, and just listening to you, you really, it puts a lot of things in my own life in perspective. And, if you could go back, and write yourself a letter, say go back five years, and if you were going to write a letter to yourself about what God has revealed to you since then, what would you say to yourself and to other young black girls like yourself?

ZAKIYA: I've thought about this a lot, ironically, so it's maybe why I'm able to answer it so fast. Probably the biggest thing is just to be true to your self. Follow Christ, but follow your heart. Be authentic. I say all those things, because, I came out my last year in college. When I first came to school, there were a lot of debates on homosexuality, and there was a lot of stuff going on and I was so afraid, that I refused to be true to myself. I wish that I could go back and apologize to these people that I hurt, but I cant. But I was the one out there, saying that, "No, homosexuals are going to hell." "No, being gay is nothing like being black." While it's not it has its small--it's similar. And I was the one standing up, mouthing, totally saying, "If you love the homosexual, you would tell them that they are going down the path of destruction." That was me, saying all of those things, and it was mostly out of fear and out of wanting to fit in somewhere. Because there were a few black girls on campus, but they were in the other dorm, you know, I didn't know them. I was so afraid to be honest, and to be true and to be authentic. And so I think that's what I'd say, because one of the things that keeps impressing on me is to be authentic, and have a true faith, and have, you know, be honest with God. We sing all these songs at the church I used to go to in Junior year, about being holy, "Holy God, and I'm wholly Yours, and I'm all Yours, I want You to have everything, all of me" at the same time we say all those things, but we want to leave that part behind, that part of who we really are, which is, you know, I just happen to be a gay Christian. That's who I really am, just be honest to yourself. Any way, as scary as it is, just try and go with that, I guess.

JUSTIN: I am so impressed by you, I so enjoy talking to you and seeing Christ at work in your life, I think you have this sense, and I hope it comes across here in the show, but you just have this sense of God's Grace and Love in your life that is, it's contagious.

BRIAN: Amen. I agree.

JUSTIN: And you're such a great person to be around. When we as gay Christians are struggling at times, not feeling connected in the church, it's such a joy to see others who are, in one way or another, "role models,"--and you don't have to have everything together, and have your whole life worked out to be a role model in that sense--but just the way that you show Christ's love, so obviously present in your life, is a joy to me and I hope it will be to every body else.

BRIAN: And an inspiration! So many people have, not every one has gone through every thing you've gone through, and yet you've--as my grandparents would say--been to the "school of hard knocks," when it comes to living with a lot of challenges, but overcoming them with such grace. So, my goodness, Zakiya, thank you so much for taking the time out of this very busy day for you to be on our program.

ZAKIYA: Um-hmm. And I just want to say thank you as well. Everything you guys just said means a lot. Because I don't, I definitely don't have it all together and then there are times when I definitely feel disconnected. It's just through the Grace of God that I'm able to rise above feeling disconnected from people to still feel in some slight way connected to Him, which is really all that matters right now.

JUSTIN: So, if you're listening to this show and you are interested in continuing the dialogue with Zakiya and getting to know her because is an awesome, awesome woman of God, Zakiya, you do have an e-mail address.

ZAKIYA: Yes, I do.

JUSTIN: You've said that you don't know how often you'll be able to check it over the next few months because your internet access may be spotty here for a bit. So, people out there in GCN-Radio-listener-land, you know, BE PATIENT if she doesn't respond to you right away. But, what's the best way for them to get in touch with you?

ZAKIYA: Okay, my e-mail address is divinitysjewell@gmail.com.

JUSTIN: Great.

BRIAN: Cool, terrific.

JUSTIN: And you're also over on the GCN website over on the GCN Message board.

ZAKIYA: Yes. And I'm on there as Zakiya or Divinity's Jewell, I'm not sure, I think I'm on there as Zakiya.

JUSTIN: Okay, all right, so you can look for over there, as well and send her a private message.

ZAKIYA: I check GCN a lot, because, especially on Thursdays, with the Women's Chat.

JUSTIN: Zakiya, thank you again so much for being on the show, it's been a pleasure and I hope that we can chat more soon, just one on one, because I just really enjoy conversations with you.

ZAKIYA: Yeah, same here.

JUSTIN: So, thank you again.

ZAKIYA: Um-hmm. Thank you.

BRIAN: Gosh, it's so cool to have people like her on! What an inspirational story, Justin. Sitting there listening to her talk...

JUSTIN: She's great. I love talking to her. So I'm really glad that we could have Zakiya on the show. We are seriously out of time this week, but we've good Question-of-the-week responses that we'll be hitting you with next week. As always, we love to hear from you and don't remember--uh, don't forget--don't remember?

BRIAN: Yeah. [Laughs]

JUSTIN: Don't FORGET!!! Arghhhhh! I'm just out of it today, Brian!

BRIAN: That's okay. It's okay.

JUSTIN: Don't forget we would love to hear from you. If you are listening to the show and you, you just don't...

BRIAN: You just don't buy it...

JUSTIN: You don't buy it.

BRIAN: You just don't buy the whole gay thing.

JUSTIN: You don't buy in to where we're coming from, OR you know someone who doesn't and you want to put them in touch with us, feel free, you can give us a call, toll-free 1-888-GAY-4GOD, or send us a message at www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio, that's the website, you go to the website there and fill something into the text box. Let us know how to get in touch with you and we may choose someone to be on a future edition of the show and talk about some of these issues.

BRIAN: That would be great.

JUSTIN: We would love to hear from you. We've got more stuff coming at you next week. Thank you as always for listening, and, oh we've also got some listener responses to Brian's announcement from last week.

BRIAN: Yes. Um-hmm.

JUSTIN: So, we'll hit that next week as well. A lot of hitting going on next week.

BRIAN: [Chuckles] Yes, we'll hit that, and this and that, all of the above next week. But for this week, I'm Brian.

JUSTIN: And I'm Justin, God bless, have a great week!