GCN Radio - November 18, 2005
Transcribed by sandushinka

To listen to this episode, visit http://www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio

[GCN Radio Intro]

BRIAN: Another GCN Radio and it's another Friday and by golly by gum, Justin, here we are. Yea!

JUSTIN: Did you say by gum? By gum?

BRIAN: I have no idea where that came from. I heard somebody say that.

JUSTIN: By gum . . .

BRIAN: You used the word "looker" on a previous show . . .

JUSTIN: Oh yeah, yeah.

BRIAN: . . . and so I thought, ok, I'll say "by gum."

JUSTIN: By gum . . .

I'm going to say "by Wrigleys." Although that sounds like a product endorsement. It sounds like it could be B-U-Y. And I don't have any particular reason to think that Wrigleys is any better than any other gum--it's just the first one that came to my head.

BRIAN: Well, product placement . . . you brought up something I hadn't even considered.

JUSTIN: Product placement . . .

BRIAN: Exactly. There we go--we can make money that way.

I just heard a story on National Public Radio that was talking about how movie industry people are against product placement. And they want all the product placement information fully disclosed before the movie begins. So they would roll this long list of credits for Pepsi and different card companies and what not.

JUSTIN: Oh goodness . . . because the previews aren't already long enough.

BRIAN: Right. We're just going to add some more material there.

JUSTIN: If you go see a movie at 4:00 and the movie doesn't start til 6:30 because you're sitting through hours of trailers . . .

BRIAN: Exactly.

JUSTIN: . . . and commercials and then the dancing . . .

BRIAN: You almost have to have an intermission, you know, in the middle of the previews.

JUSTIN: I know.

BRIAN: Just to give your mind a break.

JUSTIN: It's crazy. I like them though. I'm one of the people who doesn't ever want to show up late to the movie because I don't want to miss the previews.

BRIAN: I have to admit that I like them too. Because they're very funny, but also I like to see what kinds of movies are coming up. Like "Rent" in a few weeks.

JUSTIN: "Rent," yes. Right before Thanksgiving, isn't it? The day before Thanksgiving.

BRIAN: Yes, yes it is.

JUSTIN: That's going to be a big one.

BRIAN: And I have plans to see it with a friend already. So I am going to be totally there.

Justin, we're awfully happy to have on our show today a very distinguished guest -- Michael Adee. He's the national field organizer for More Light Presbyterians, which is the national welcoming and affirming GLBT network and organization in the Presbyterian Church. And he has a long resume of things that he has done. He's served as a college professor in Louisville, KY and Ohio. He's been a hospital and hospice chaplain, a bereavement counselor, campus minister, diversity consultant, tennis coach, and a teacher/relief worker in Zimbabwe. And he has a PhD in rhetoric & communications from Louisiana State University. Please welcome Dr. Michael Adee. Thanks for being on our show.

MICHAEL: Thanks. It's great to be on the show. And Michael's just fine.

BRIAN: Oh, ok. That is a long list of accomplishments and I didn't even read page 2 & 3 of all the awards and accolades you've accumulated over the years. You have a really interesting story. And incidentally, you're gay too. So I think that's safe to say. So tell us a little bit about your story and a little about your work.

MICHAEL: Absolutely. And of course I'm completely out and that's a wonderful experience to be out as a gay man and a person of faith. And it hasn't always been that way. Nor has it had that kind of freedom. And part of the reason why I've moved around a lot was the fact that my dad was an engineer for an oil company so we moved a lot as a family. But then I have moved a lot, sometimes by choice and sometimes as a result of discrimination. But I am a lifelong Presbyterian. I was baptized in the Presbyterian Church. My dad was an elder. My mom was in charge of pastoral care. So every place we lived, we were part of the church.

And it was the church that nurtured me and taught me faith. I've often wondered about my baptism these years ago, thinking, hmm, when I was baptized, the church made a promise to my parents to nurture me in faith and Jesus Christ and to love me and the congregation stood and accepted that commitment. Nobody asked is this a homosexual baby or is this a heterosexual baby. This was just a baby with reddish hair and two parents wanting to love their child.

So, that's in part why I've moved around a lot. One is I think the Spirit has taken me to lots of incredible places but also I've had to make some decisions as I've come out. And I have been fired--now the count is from 5 positions.

BRIAN: Oh my.

MICHAEL: Five different jobs. But at each one God had something new and different and more challenging and more satisfying for me down the road.

BRIAN: Wow.

JUSTIN: So, ok, you blew me away because I had my question ready . . .

BRIAN: . . . and then you say you were fired from 5 positions.

JUSTIN: Exactly. I guess before I get to my question can you tell us a little bit more about that? About what happened?

MICHAEL: Sadly, Justin and Brian, you know, as would many of the listeners, that there is no federal protection for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender people in terms of employment and discrimination. Anti-discrimination laws are still too rare.

So early on as a campus minister, I was fired when I came out.

When I started a LGBT student group at the college in Northern Kentucky when I was a college professor, I was fired in what was later called the worst case of discrimination in the history of this school.

When I was serving as a hospice chaplain, I was also working with Stonewall Cincinnati--the gay rights/human rights organization--and as an openly gay elder at Mount Auburn Presbyterian Church. When my ordination was challenged within the Presbyterian Church, it hit the papers. So my director of the hospice came to me one day -- after serving for 3 years there -- and said, you know you're kind of a controversial person.

And it was ironic that it was my being out in the press as a person of faith that created the loss of my hospice job. And it's one of the reasons why I became an advocate. I'm not sure I would have become an advocate if I hadn't experienced discrimination myself.

BRIAN: Wow.

JUSTIN: Well, so now you're working with More Light Presbyterians. And this is an organization that maybe a lot of people may not be that familiar with. Can you tell us a little about More Light Presbyterians and what you guys are doing?

MICHAEL: Absolutely. Our organization is a non-profit religious organization affiliated with the Presbyterian Church USA. The Presbyterian Church USA is the larger of the Presbyterian denominations. There are a couple of smaller ones. But there are 2.5 million Presbyterians of this flavor and we've been working for 31 years for the full embrace of gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered people in the life of the Presbyterian Church. So that's what I call my day job. And it's a remarkable experience because it brings my faith and my activism together.

BRIAN: Is More Light Presbyterians--when you say affiliated with the Presbyterian USA church--is it an official affiliation? Or, for instance, I'm a member of Dignity, which is a Catholic organization--which is certainly not recognized by the actual Catholic Church.

MICHAEL: Well it would be similar. We are not an official agency and if we were we would be bound by their policies and statements about LGBT people, which are still anti-gay. And so we have no official relationship.

BRIAN: Right, OK.

Now, much of your job as a field organizer seems to involve helping to start new More Light churches and spreading the word about how to build affirming churches. What kinds of challenges do you run into with that?

MICHAEL: It can be challenging. And it certainly is in congregations that don't recognize that there are gay members. Or that they have parents of persons like me. So often if the recognition doesn't even exist, then I have to build a consciousness.

The challenges for many people are can I-- particularly clergy, but also church members--if I'm open, as they say, to homosexuals, or I would say to gay and lesbian, bisexual, transgendered people, will this somehow be a detriment to my faith or my morality. And then I push them to consider a much larger gospel--an understanding of God that embraces all persons regardless of any human difference.

And often if I can begin with those kinds of connections, you know, people begin to relax. And then I remind them that you know the Christian thing to do is to be loving and accepting and embracing of all God's children. And when churches say all are welcome, do they really mean it? So I test that. You know it's easy to say all are welcome, but are they willing to live it out? And would it include all people?

JUSTIN: What kind of responses have you gotten from others within the Presbyterian community?

MICHAEL: You know there's a real range. And for many persons they're profoundly inspired. They're really grateful that More Light Presbyterians exist, that we provide that kind of witness and acceptance.

Just last week I was at a church in Washington, DC and a mom came up to me at the door after I preached a sermon. And this church was built in 1864 and it's behind the Supreme Court. It's Capitol Hill Presbyterian Church there in DC. And I wasn't the first homosexual to preach in that pulpit, I'm sure. But I was the first known gay person to preach. And afterwards standing in the line--you know the courtesies when people greet you after a sermon--and a mom came up to me and said thank you so much for being here. You know I have a son who's gay.

And then a young woman, probably about 20, came up to me and there was no one else around and she said, you know, I have a sister who's lesbian. My parents are very conservative religious people and they're really struggling. What one thing would you help me with to say to my parents? So there at the door standing and I was thinking, ok, what do I say? And this what I told her. I said tell your parents that they can absolutely love their daughter and it will not compromise their faith or their morality. That they can maintain all of that and be a family.

JUSTIN: Yeah.

BRIAN: You know, unfortunately, it's easier said than done, as I'm sure you've seen in your work and the churches, while they shouldn't be, are often obstacles. They're perhaps some of the most judgmental institutions we have in our world right now towards LBGT people. And that's really sad. How do we get beyond that? What is it going to take to get Christian churches to start accepting gay people?

MICHAEL: Yeah, you're exactly right. It is quite disheartening to me and makes me sad. And often when I'm at Gay Pride or at a festival in the gay community, people are suspicious of me. You know, because I'm a gay person of faith and a gay Christian and working for change in the Presbyterian Church. And some people will say, aren't you working with the enemy? And I'll go, well you know, not all people of faith, not all Christians are this hateful or mean or narrow or judgmental but we all get painted with the same brush. So when a particular religious figure gives an angry sermon or responds on national television in an anti-gay way, we all get painted with the same brush.

Part of it is, I think, that a lot of Christians aren't comfortable with their own bodies and their own sexuality. And so instead of working on embracing their bodies and integrating their sexuality with their faith, they get nervous. And then they blame us. So I wish they'd just work in their own backyard.

The same would be true about same sex marriage, marriage equality, those very important issues. If heterosexual persons are worried about marriage, work on the institution of marriage but don't try to prevent loving faithful same sex couples from having marriage equality.

I think a lot of it also is an absolute wedge issue. I'm here right now creating change. The 18th annual conference for activists wants to write the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force head in DC. And I'm doing an answer to helping people of faith stay in their religious communities and work for change. And also helping activists figure out how to work with religious communities who believe in fairness and who believe in equality. You know, since the extreme right doesn't have communism to use anymore, they engage in fear and polarization on our backs. So we're the wedge issue. Unfortunately.

And for some they're sincere--I think sincerely wrong--but sincere and genuine about not understanding homosexuality. And not understanding who we are and what our lives are like. So it's a whole range of ways that this shows up and you know we can work in a variety of ways to address this concern, this fear. But part of it is being out, being open, talking about our lives and talking about our faith.

JUSTIN: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Because we have so many different fronts that we're battling on. Cause as you say, there are those who just really sincerely believe that the Bible condemns being gay and we need to address those issues with those people.

But there are others that their position is based in prejudice or based in politics or based in something else. And they use their faith as this shield, this way of lending legitimacy to feelings that are really not about Christianity at all, not about their faith at all. But just your being there doing what you're doing is having a tremendous impact on individuals, like some of the ones that you named.

BRIAN: Michael, you said something earlier in our conversation about Christians not understanding, not comfortable with their own bodies, with their own sexuality. And you know that really touches on something that we have not touched on on GCN Radio before--it's not just homosexuality that is an issue in Christian circles, it's sexuality in general. It's a taboo subject and we kind of hush and our voices get lower. We are uncomfortable as Christians talking about sex.

MICHAEL: Yeah, absolutely.

BRIAN: How do we start having a dialog about that?

MICHAEL: I think we start by realizing that we're a gift. I often say to LGBT persons of faith, you know, we're a gift to our churches and our families whether they want to unwrap us or not. And part of it, I watch people change in terms of how they see themselves. And they begin to sit up a little more proudly. The gift we can bring is the integration of sexuality and spirituality and faith and claiming our bodies.

You know, it's really kind of strange because Christians will often say sexuality is a good gift from God but then they hold it in such a narrow and suspicious way. And obviously, if it's held only for heterosexual married persons, well that doesn't include lots of other people--including single heterosexual persons of faith and those of us who fall in love with people like us. So, part of it is getting rid of that puritanical way that the body is bad. And in a way, we have split off our hearts and our spirits and our bodies and we live as very disembodied people, as Christians. So part of it is bringing it all together and recognizing that God made us as whole individuals, that we cannot separate our soul and our body and our heart and our mind. We're actually the gift.

JUSTIN: We don't want to just take the position that anything that you do at any time, with any person, in any situation is automatically ok. It's ok to have sexual ethics and morals and talk about how we should behave as Christians sexually. But on the other hand to say that there might be a certain limit on how you should express yourself sexually is not to say that you aren't a sexual being. And that's what I think the church is missing the boat on. Do you know what I'm saying? That we're just behaving as if people really just are not sexual beings at all outside of a marriage. And that's a shame.

MICHAEL: And that's as true for the lack of relevance and the lack of helpful teaching and guidance for heterosexual persons and marriages as well as gay and lesbian, bisexual, transgendered people. Census 2000 indicated something quite surprising and something to pay attention to--that less than one quarter of families are in households that include opposite sex married persons with children. It was 24 percent. And yet most of our churches and most of our institutions kind of follow that model. I'm all for that kind of family. That's the kind of family I grew up in. Although I happened to be a queer kid in that kind of family. So that leaves the majority of people in society, in church, receiving no guidance at all.

And that platitude--sex is dirty; save it for the one you love. And I think in some way that's what the church is saying. Even if it's silence, that's not helpful. How do we find our way as Christians, you know, in terms of our faith, our sexuality? A group of young gay men in the church in Cincinnati where I served as an elder came up to me once and they said, you know Michael, we know how to have sex, we don't know how to date.

BRIAN: Wow, that could be a whole other GCN Radio.

MICHAEL: I was just struck. So then we had a retreat and I brought in this wonderful lesbian Christian to talk about our relationship with God, our relationship with ourself--to talk about our intimate relationships and how we find our way. And it was a remarkable, remarkable weekend that helped us begin the conversation about how we bring body and soul together.

JUSTIN: The gay community revolves so much around sex when it really shouldn't. It's a part but to be able to integrate that with all of who you are and, you know, your faith and relationships and dating all this stuff. Ahhhh, what a challenge!

BRIAN: Really.

MICHAEL: Absolutely.

BRIAN: You know I like to ask our guests what advice they would give and what not--advice for youth, advice for parents. I know you work with pastors so lets pretend that I'm Pastor Brian at John Doe Presbyterian Church somewhere in America and you have contacted me about becoming an affirming church. What are you going to say to me?

MICHAEL: The first thing I would say is thank you for meeting with me because often pastors, sadly, are kind of anxious to meet with a homosexual or a gay person or a gay Christian. So I would begin with a thank you.

And then I would say, you know, I really respect the role you have as a pastor. And it's a huge sacred responsibility. And part of that sacred responsibility is making sure that every person in your watch knows that they are a child of God--created in God's image and absolutely, unconditionally loved by God. So, how do we create bridges to all the people in your congregation to understand that? And if there are any barriers, let's identify those and lets see how we might remove them one by one.

So, that's how I'd begin and then I'd talk about the fact that whether you know it or not as a pastor, there are gay people in your congregation. There are parents who have lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, gay kids. There are people who have friends who are gay and so whatever the church's position or teaching might be on homosexuality, this is about how we're family, how we're church. This is about providing good pastoral care. And so that's how I'd begin the conversation and I would encourage the pastor that whatever her or his disposition might be on homosexuality, for that not to be a barrier to being a good, safe, loving pastor. So that's how I usually begin the conversations.

BRIAN: That's great.

JUSTIN: Wow. Well we could just chatter away all day.

BRIAN: We could. We've so many issues and we've barely touched on all of them. But Michael, we are so appreciative of your time and your talents and what you're doing in More Light Presbyterian church, and for the church in general, to help us all come together and be one in Christ. So thanks Michael Adee for being on GCN Radio today.

JUSTIN: And you know I heard through the grapevine, a little bird and all that jazz, that Michael is going to be joining us for the conference we have in January in Orlando.

BRIAN: Excellent.

MICHAEL: I'm looking forward to the conference and supporting the ministry that is so life-giving and life saving

BRIAN: Thank you.

JUSTIN: We're thrilled to have you.

MICHAEL: You're more than welcome, thank you.

JUSTIN: Well, wow, Brian, well we've had another fantastic show--if I do say so myself.

BRIAN: Absolutely.

JUSTIN: This is my favorite show on the fake radio.

BRIAN: That's great, well, listening to Michael talk just reminds me of all of the really great guests we've had. People who have individual stories, people who are really doing some excellent work. And, if people haven't seen the long archives back to Season 2, Season 1, all the people we've had, we've been awfully lucky to have some wonderful people on our show. And you can go back to listen to any show you want by putting your browser to http://www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio which is also . . .

JUSTIN: Toot, toot. Do you know what that sound is?

BRIAN: What?

JUSTIN: That's us tooting our own horn.

BRIAN: Hey, self promotion . . . what can I say, we're awfully good at it.

JUSTIN: That's right. But we do want to hear your comments and questions and ideas and pretty much everything--except death threats--about the show. And you can send those to us at gcnradio@gaychristian.net

BRIAN: Good. So for this week, I'm Brian . . .

JUSTIN: . . . And I'm Justin. We'll talk to you next week.