GCN Radio - November 25, 2005
Transcribed by MyckeyD

To listen to this episode, visit http://www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio

[GCN Radio Intro]

BRIAN: Happy day-after-Thanksgiving! Here we are for another edition, and it's good to be here. We stuffed ourselves like greedy Americans! [Laughs]

JUSTIN: [Chuckles]

BRIAN: I always feel a little bit bad, because I always remember people who are less fortunate. So I'm like, "why am I stuffing myself with this gigantic meal?" But we did and it was fun. Thanksgiving was spent with friends this year, so we had a good time. The rest of my family was out of town.

JUSTIN: Well, that's good. I mean, not good that your family was out of town, but that's good that you could spend that time with friends.

BRIAN: It was a good day, indeed. And yourself?

JUSTIN: I was, I was with my family, uh, yesterday for Thanksgiving. It should be noted that it was Thanksgiving for us here in the U.S. Not necessarily elsewhere.

BRIAN: Right.

JUSTIN: Indeed, Thanksgiving not is celebrated at the same time as everywhere.

BRIAN: Absolutely.

JUSTIN: A lot of people have traditions... you know, for Thanksgiving. And uh... Especially food. I mean, it's like, uh, you always have the same FOOD and I don't know, since you spent Thanksgiving with friends, if that may be the case for you for this year. But in the past have you always had certain foods that you always eat--at Thanksgiving--that you always look forward to every year?

BRIAN: I have to say, it's always been a pretty traditional turkey dinner each year. But I know that on Christmas, one of the gifts I would always get as a traditional food: I love chocolate-covered cherries! [passionately:] I just love them!

JUSTIN: UMMMM!

BRIAN: Omigosh! Here we are talking about food again here on GCN Radio!

JUSTIN: I know...we always talk about food. People are going to think that gay Christians have nothing to talk about other than food.

BRIAN: Ha! But no, for us it's pretty much been the traditional, you know, turkey, mashed potatoes or sweet potatoes, and dressing, and that sort of thing. How about yourself? Do you guys have something special that you eat on that special day?

JUSTIN: We have in my family, we have generally certain dishes that are always prepared every year, you know, there's typical stuff, there's a ham and a turkey and I have a big family, and there's usually lots of food. But I have to admit; my favorite thing that I look forward to every year is my mom makes this Asparagus casserole.

BRIAN: Oh! That sounds GREAT!

JUSTIN: Really? Okay, there are a lot of people who don't like asparagus.

BRIAN: I do, I love asparagus!

JUSTIN: There are some who find it revolting. So, I must to apologize to those people, but you know, we make you fat on the other episodes talking about yummy foods, so if you don't like asparagus maybe this will help.

BRIAN: [chuckles] This will help this will balance it out.

JUSTIN: I do, I love asparagus. I love this casserole that she makes. I look forward to it every year. And my sister and I, every year, we always eat like the whole thing between the two of us, ha ha ha, because we both love it.

BRIAN: That sounds great! I like plain asparagus, maybe in some little lemon butter, if that's your sort of thing. Asparagus casserole sounds wonderful! That's...really unique.

JSUTIN: It is! It's quite yummy. SOOOOOO, Brian this is a show I've been looking forward to for a while. I hope it's okay for me to just jump right in like this.

BRIAN: Absolutely! We usually do. We kind of chat at the beginning and then...here's the real show, you know? People can skip ahead 3 or 4 minutes if they really want to get to the important stuff...

JUSTIN: [LAUGHING] The REAL show! The first part was the fake show! This is the RRREEAALLL SHOW!

BRIAN: Exactly! I've been looking forward to this show, too, and we've been doing some planning behind the scenes for it,

JUSTIN: Yeah!

BRIAN: And it really came out of one of the "Questions of the week" a few weeks ago.

JUSTIN: RIGHT! Because we asked a question about being in the closet, and asked for people who were in the closet to share some their experiences and thoughts about being in the closet with us. And...WOW! The response was just tremendous! And so, we talked about this, and we decided we were going to do a whole show about being in the closet and just go through some of the responses that we've gotten to that question.

BRIAN: And I think this really an important topic because I do believe, at least in the area where I live, that it's arguably true that most of the gay people in my part of the country are probably in the closet. So we're really speaking to the majority of gay people here. I think that it takes a lot of courage to be out. It takes a special kind of environment to be out in, and not everyone has that. So, there are a lot of people, more than we know, who are in the closet!

JUSTIN: Yeah.

BRIAN: So this is a really important show. I believe we've got some people to hear from, but can you read one of the text responses first?

JUSTIN: Sure! Well, let's see, I'll start with one from somebody named Justin, because, I like his name!

BRIAN: [chuckles] Can't imagine why! [Said sarcastically]

JUSTIN: [laughs] So, yeah, my namesake out there.

He writes this, "I'm still battling with the issue of identity. My life's pretty complicated. From elementary and even through junior high, people suspicious about me being gay, yet me never even considering it. Personally, even the word gay has always put a repulsive look on my face. A few weeks ago, actually, I almost came out to one of my friends, in hopes he'd understand, but I'm glad I didn't because he really didn't seem to care about me as much as I thought. As of now, I'm in high school, and more eager for friendships rather than an in-detail relationship. If ever I did come out, it would have to be with someone I truly trust." This is what Justin writes in.

BRIAN: Wow.

JUSTIN: And, you know, I was reading that, and I was thinking--and this is sort of a little bit of a separate topic--but when he talks about struggling with his own identity, and even the idea of the word gay being repulsive to him, for so much of his life, so far, I know that we have a lot of listeners out there who can relate to that. That maybe one of the reasons they're in the closet is that they haven't really even embraced that label of "gay" for themselves.

BRIAN: Right.

JUSTIN: You know? Like, that they know they are attracted to the same sex, but they're just not ready to say, "I'm gay" even to themselves, certainly not to anybody else.

BRIAN: Well, I would even go as far as to say that I've met gay people who have internalized homophobia. People who get that message from society or from church or family or whomever, that "being gay is bad!" So, "how could I ever admit that I'm this way?" I can hear what Justin is saying there. The other thing that I wrote down was "trust." I think that's a common theme where "Who can I trust with this VERY PRIVATE thing about myself? Who do I tell? How do I even begin to tell it?" I think we're going to see that as a common theme here.

JUSTIN: Yeah, that's a really difficult issue I think knowing not only when to say something, but who can you trust? Who can you trust to keep it...private if you're not ready for the whole world to know? And, who can you trust to respond positively?

BRIAN: Sexual matters are private to begin with and then, you know, and then in certain areas really taboo, and "I'm going to say something sexual about myself and, by the way, it's also regarded as BAAAD!" So--

JUSTIN: Right!

BRIAN: So you know, these are tough things!

JUSTIN: [laughing in astonishment] It's a really taboo subject, it really is! Let me read another one of our responses that we received. This one is from Todd.

Todd writes: "Yes, I'm still in the closet, to family and the people I work with. I know how my mother feels about gay people, and since I'm still stuck living at home, I'm not out to my family. Most of the people I work with are negative about gays, so I'm not "out" there. I desperately want to be out to the entire world, but until most of my bills are paid off, and I'm able to live on my own, it seems the closet is shut tight, possibly locked. But at least I'm in the closet with a broadband connection to GCN! It was GCN that helped me reconcile my religion with my sexuality, making me feel better about myself."

BRIAN: Aha!

JUSTIN: That last part warms my heart. [Chuckles]

BRIAN: That was nice! That was really interesting. And another theme that was brought up, especially with young people: where you're dependent on your family, it's your lifeline, it's your support system, and if they believe homosexuality is wrong and you come out...oh my gosh! "There goes my safety net! What if they cut off my support? What if they won't pay for college any more? What if they won't let me live here?"

JUSTIN: Yeah, and it doesn't happen as often as I think people are afraid that it will. I mean, even many of the most conservative parents who may have said many very anti-gay things, still will continue to love their child even after they come out. They may not understand, and they may not agree, and they may try very hard to convince the child to--you know--to renounce being gay. But, many of them will still love and support their child emotionally and financially, and so on. But unfortunately there are those cases where kids get kicked out, you know, or disowned, or whatnot, and so there are some financial considerations. I mean, it seems like, you know Justin was talking about sort of struggling with his own identity as gay, and here is Todd is talking about, he really wants to come out to the world, but he's worried about some of the financial implications about that, among other things. I've got some more of these that I want to read, but we've got some phone-in responses we'd like to get to as well.

BRIAN: Right, uh-hmm. We're always happy to here from people who call in on these questions. These people called 1-888-GAY-4GOD and left their response. And let's hear from this caller right now.

CALLER: Hi, um, I'm in the closet right now because my parents will disapprove completely and they will totally disown me, and will try to force down my throat that being straight is the only way possible that you could commit yourself to God. They are Christians, and they think that God will punish me completely and I will rot in the roots of hell because I am gay. And this hurts me because I'm still the son that they love from before, but they don't see that. And if I tell them...I don't want them to always have this awkwardness between us I because I'm gay or not, and that's why I'd think they'd need to accept me. [Last sentence somewhat inaudible, transcriptioner's interpretation]

BRIAN: Wow.

JUSTIN: Wow. [Sighs]

BRIAN: That's always tough to hear. I think one of the toughest things there is he believes his parents would say to him, "God will punish you and send you to Hell!" WHAT?

JUSTIN: Yeah...

BRIAN: Now is that--help me understand--because, is that in the Bible? That God will punish you and go to hell? I don't think so!

JUSTIN: No but, It's one of those things. There's one of those passages that is often pulled out of context, in 1st Corinthians, and, we've talked about in the show with Justin Cannon, so I won't get into all of it again but, there's a passage that talks about the Greek word arsenokoitai: not inheriting the kingdom of God. And unfortunately because of the way that some Bibles have translated that, it's given some people the impression that, that passage is actually saying, "that gay people are all doomed to hell." Which is NOT what it says, and I think it's much clearer in the Greek and I wish we could talk more about that in this show, but you know. Go back and listen to the Justin Cannon show!

BRIAN: I feel like this person is in a very much in a really tough situation.

JUSTIN: Of course, the sad thing is I know that he's one of many, many people in that situation. I mean, and that can be a comfort, because if you're listening to the show and you're in the same situation as that caller, you should know that, you are not alone! There are a lot of other people out there, who are worried about the same thing that you are. A lot of young people who still live at home who are very much worried about what their parents are going to say, and if you end up having that kind of conversation with your parents and they say those kinds of things: know that you're not alone, that there are lots of parents having that conversation with lots of gay kids, all over the world. And um, it's sad! But at least you're in good company. You know?

BRIAN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: Here's another response. This is from Jonathan.

Jonathan writes: "NO ONE knows that I'm gay. I don't tell anyone because things could never be the same with my friends and parents. I do wish I were out really bad, though. GCN has been helpful. When I'm really down about being gay, I listen to it and it's nice to just hear other people are like me."

Well, I didn't even plan that. But that just goes right along with what I was just saying: Know that you're not alone!

BRIAN: Right!

JUSTIN: Jonathan is listening to the show, which is great!

BRIAN: Thanks Jonathan!

JUSTIN: At least he knows he's not alone. When he talks about "things can never be the same", I think that's one of the things that a lot of people worry about. Once you're OUT, that YOU'RE OUT! And then you can't go back in. You know?

BRIAN: I remember something that Mel White told us on the show. He is someone who advocates coming out. He really believes that we can only begin to change minds when we're out. And whether you agree or disagree with that, he also said, "if there's a price to pay, you know, pay it up front. Don't let a lot of time go by." I just find that interesting that he would say that you know, "If there's a price to pay, pay it up front."

JUSTIN: Yeah, well, I don't know.

BRIAN: Well let's hear from another person who phoned in their response. Let's hear now from Jenny, from Canada.

JENNY: I would say that I live my life half in and half out of the closet. Pretty much all of my non-Christian friends know I'm gay, but among my Christian friends, only the ones I consider close friends know. The main reason for keeping it a secret pretty much boils down to fear...fear of a few different things. You know, I work with children a lot at my church and I'm afraid that if it comes out that I'm gay, there'll be people who think I shouldn't be working with the kids. I'm also afraid of being "gay" suddenly being my defining characteristic. You know, people who think about me all they ever think is: "Oh yeah, that gay girl!" Of course there's fear of the homophobes. Because most of the Christians I know don't know I'm gay, every once in a while I hear people say some rather mean things, or even, not mean but ignorant things about gay people. But the biggest fear I have is: probably just having to explain myself, over and over again. About how I don't plan to go to an ex-gay group, how I think I can be gay and Christian. How I believe in the Bible, and don't think that who I am contradicts that. You know, I haven't even decided on the whole Side A/B thing. I tend to lean towards Side B, but still, having to explain to people that I don't think it's not as clear-cut as they seem to think it is, it's frustrating! And even if I end up Side B, having to tell people that I'm celibate!? That's just annoying...and frustrating! You know, I have no problem telling people that I'm a virgin or that I believe in waiting until marriage, but telling people that I might be celibate for life? I really don't think that everybody should have to know about my sex life, or LACK of a sex life. I really don't think it's their business. But if I tell them I'm gay, they will ask. Christians I've told have just flat out asked me. They think that's their right, or duty, or something. Of course, these are the reasons I HAVEN'T come all the way out! But I hate it! I hate being in the closet! I feel like no one knows me. I've had conversations with people who I think are really cool, and in the middle of them I suddenly have the thought: "What's the point? Why even bother getting to know this person because unless you tell them you're gay, they will never really know you, and your friendship could never go beyond a certain point." You know, sexuality being so central to whom we are, just something most straight people don't understand because they haven't had to think about it. But it is! But if you don't know that about me you, can't understand! I hate that!

JUSTIN: Wow.

BRIAN: Man! There's so much. We could do a whole show just on that call!

JUSTIN: I know, well she's referring to the whole side A/B debate about whether or not it's okay for gay people to be in relationships which is something that's discussed a lot on our website at gaychristian.net. And the whole thing about working with kids, you know? You know there are a lot of gay people who have that fear, too. That people are going to think bad things about them. People are going to not going to want them around their kids, once they're out. Oh gosh! UGHH!

BRIAN: Yeah.

JUSTIN: All right! Well, two more that I'm going to read real quickly before we close.

Marlin wrote this: "Total Fear! Fear that it will be revealed that I am gay to my Christian community and they will be both horrified and disappointed. In the end, I believe that in their mind it will discount every service I have ever done in the name of Christ."

You know Marlin is worried about the possibility of, once you come out...people are just going to only see you as gay. That's it. If that's a bad thing to them all the good, everything they liked about you is just going to go away. And you know what, usually that does not happen. But it is something people worry about a lot before they come out.

And then one final comment, and this is from Scott. And Scott has a little different take on things.

Scott writes, "I'm in the closet to most people, work and family. I have a partner, but we don't live together. For me being mostly in the closet is a decision that I have made for this time in my life based what is best for all the people who would be effected, should I come out now. For someone who was married for many years, has kids, and is in an established career, et cetera, I think there are many people who would be affected. I believe that in all decisions, not this just important one, the needs and feelings of others are significant components that take priority over our own rights. My sexuality is not the whole of who I am. I have many facets and choose to keep some of those personal to some people. My life works for me. I have friends who know I'm gay and are supportive. I have some who don't know and don't need to. I respect anyone's right to be out or be in."

So it's interesting you know, I think Mel White might disagree with Scott, in the sense that you were talking about Mel would see coming out as an obligation, in the sense that one has to serve the larger community to make a difference. Whereas Scott is saying, I don't think that everybody needs to know, I don't think I need to tell people, and I choose to keep some parts of my life personal and this is one parts I choose to keep personal.

BRIAN: That is a different look. I think that he's thought that out, he's made that decision for him and it works for him. And I say, "Go Scott!"

JUSTIN: [Chuckles] He brings up and interesting point. How out is OUT? You know? Because, really, in a sense--and I wish we can talk about this some more--really in a sense, all of us, or almost all of us are really in the closet to SOMEBODY.

BRIAN: Sure.

JUSTIN: Not maybe even intentionally, but unless you walk around wearing some T-shirt that says you know, "I'm Gay!"

BRIAN: [Laughter]

JUSTIN: The fact is, you know, there's always going to be people around you who don't know. I mean the woman behind you in line at the supermarket or something. Somebody doesn't know that you're gay. And then you always have to make the decision--and that's the thing about coming out, it's this continual process, you know, that you're always having to come out to new people, over and over and over. Sometimes you might make that decision; that I'm not going to tell this person at this point in my life because I just don't feel they need to know, you know? That person that I'm waiting on, as if you're in retail, or if you're a server in a restaurant or something, or you know, or whatever.

BRIAN: That'd be funny: "Hi, I'm your server and, oh, I'M GAY. Would you like some fries with that?"

JUSTIN: [Laughs] Right. There are some people who don't need to know. So, going along with that I have a question of the week that I want to ask before we close. The question has to do with, sort of, how out you are, in a sense, and whether you think that people need to know. And it has to do with holding hands. If you are in a relationship with somebody of the same-sex, or if you're not, think about if you were in a relationship with somebody of the same sex. How important to you is it, or how do you feel about holding hands in public or otherwise expressing physical affection in public? Is this something that you think...should gay couples do this or not? Do you think, yeah, you definitely, you need to do this because this is a part of expressing your love and you shouldn't be ashamed of that? Or, do you feel, "No, this is a private thing. This is something I don't want to share with the rest of the world, and I don't want to make a spectacle"? Whatever. What are your thoughts? I really want to hear about them. Whether or not you're in a relationship, if you were in a relationship, how would you feel?

Are you really pro-holding hands or anti-holding hands in public? And why? How important is it to you? Could you date somebody who had the opposite perspective?

BRIAN: Are you "forehands" or "backhands"? [Laughter]

JUSTIN: [chuckles] Exactly.

BRIAN: There we go.

JUSTIN: You can respond to that via our website at www.gaychristian.net/gcnradio or by calling us toll-free within the U.S. and Canada 1-888-GAY-4GOD.

BRIAN: Excellent, and of course, send comments, anytime, anywhere to gcnradio@gaychristian.net. We will read those comments, and appreciate all of them.

JUSTIN: We're always happy to hear from you!

BRIAN: Absolutely. Justin, what a great show this week! I appreciate everyone's responses, especially the fact that people had the courage to write us, from their places in the closet, to share their stories. That was really important.

JUSTIN: Yes. Thank you so much! It means a ton to us. It really does.

BRIAN: So we'll have another great topic next week, and until then, I'm Brian...

JUSTIN: ...and I'm Justin, and Happy Thanksgiving, a day late!

[Laughter]